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London Tower Block Blaze
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johnhemming2



Joined: 30 Jun 2015
Posts: 2160

PostPosted: Tue Jun 20, 2017 1:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here is an example of civil unrest relating to Grenfell
http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/818057/London-fire-grenfell-tower-protestors-attack-man-chief-executive-robert-black

I personally cannot see anything positive in this.
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Mark



Joined: 13 Dec 2007
Posts: 1057
Location: NW England

PostPosted: Tue Jun 20, 2017 3:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

johnhemming2 wrote:
I personally cannot see anything positive in this.


Emotions are running high.....
I don't agree with it either, but I understand it to some extent.
These people have been living in squalid conditions and seen their friends/family incinerated when reasonable safety measures could/should have been taken to prevent....

To get things changed in this country, you need to make a big noise....
Especially if you're at the bottom of society....
See how long it took for Hillsborough....
This an opportunity....
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cubes



Joined: 10 Jun 2008
Posts: 649
Location: Norfolk

PostPosted: Tue Jun 20, 2017 8:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I wonder how many of the flats were illegal sublet? Might make it difficult identifying everyone who died
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adam2
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Joined: 02 Jul 2007
Posts: 7120
Location: North Somerset

PostPosted: Tue Jun 20, 2017 8:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

cubes wrote:
I wonder how many of the flats were illegal sublet? Might make it difficult identifying everyone who died


I suspect quite a few, but it cant be readily proved due to the scale of the destruction.
Due to concerns about political correctness I doubt that any mention of illegal sub letting will be allowed.
But instead I suspect that some (authorised) tenants will be found to have been away for a funeral or wedding at the time.
And that some of the dead will turn out to be not actual tenants but "overnight guests"
No law prohibits a council tenant being away overnight, and no law prohibits overnight guests. So that must be what happened.
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johnhemming2



Joined: 30 Jun 2015
Posts: 2160

PostPosted: Tue Jun 20, 2017 9:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have already mentioned that there may be a small amount of illegal sub letting. There clearly was some legitimate private rental at £395 pw.

None of this has any impact on anything other than the difficulty of working out who has died.
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vtsnowedin



Joined: 07 Jan 2011
Posts: 5203
Location: New England ,Chelsea Vermont

PostPosted: Tue Jun 20, 2017 10:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It remains to be seen how the authorities at all levels respond to this tragedy.The cynical among us ,and I'm sometimes among them,expect nothing but coverups and grandstanding. But this is an opportunity to test the quality of your government officials and candidates by watching how they perform on this issue. If you have anyone worth your vote they will get on this like a bulldog on a bulls nose and hang on until the full truth is revealed, the guilty punished and effective corrective actions are put in place.
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BritDownUnder



Joined: 21 Sep 2011
Posts: 529
Location: Hunter Valley, NSW, Australia

PostPosted: Wed Jun 21, 2017 4:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Little John wrote:
Bullshit. You just don't like having your prejudices called out.

You sought to minimise the terrible suffering of the people of Grenfell with the following comments:

However, it takes a certain kind of old-fashioned, ugly, but most of all deeply dumb-ass prejudice to try and directly conflate the above with what happened at Grenfell Tower. What happened at Grenfell happens time and again the world over to the poor and the dispossessed and has got absolutely nothing at all to do with "third world immigrant scroungers".


Happy to be called prejudiced when I see taxes being wasted on ingrate foreigners. You and your ilk threaten so called civil unrest when you don't get any taxes yourself. How about doing some old fashioned hard work. Please give us some examples of your 'civil unrest' that you intend to carry out or have carried out in the past other than forum posting.

Like all socialists you are happy spend the last of someone elses money.
Thankfully I pay taxes to a country called Australia that does not waste as much money as the UK though they try hard to.
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Mark



Joined: 13 Dec 2007
Posts: 1057
Location: NW England

PostPosted: Wed Jun 21, 2017 8:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

johnhemming2 wrote:
I have already mentioned that there may be a small amount of illegal sub letting. There clearly was some legitimate private rental at £395 pw.

None of this has any impact on anything other than the difficulty of working out who has died.


How do you know that the amount of illegal sub-letting was small ?

It could have an impact on people coming forward to be rehoused.
It could have an impact on the ability to give evidence to any future Inquiry.
It could have an impact on access to a share of the £5m put forward by HMG to cover immediate needs.
It could have an impact on access to any future compensation payments.

Best to wait until the bodies are counted ?
For their sake, I hope all are at least identified.
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johnhemming2



Joined: 30 Jun 2015
Posts: 2160

PostPosted: Wed Jun 21, 2017 9:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It is true that if someone was illegally in the country and illegally sub-letting that they are not that likely to try to make a claim. However, that does not have any effect on the question as to why the block was wrapped up in flammable material.
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raspberry-blower



Joined: 14 Mar 2009
Posts: 1779

PostPosted: Wed Jun 21, 2017 12:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Who Owns England? Where are the empty homes in Kensington?

Quote:
So how many empty homes are there in Kensington? A lot, it turns out. The Department for Communities and Local Government regularly publishes statistics on vacant dwellings, broken down by local authority area. The latest figures for Kensington & Chelsea reveal there are 1,399 vacant dwellings in the borough, as of April 2017 – and the number hasn’t dropped below a thousand for over a decade. 600 people lived in Grenfell Tower – so there are more than enough empty homes in the borough to house them all, if the properties could be accessed.



The problem here is not so much the immigration issue per se - that is a symptom rather than the cause.
The cause is an out-of-control rentier economic system that benefits the few at the expense of the many.

As an aside, I once worked in the Royal Borough of Kensington & Chelsea as a Recycling Advisor as part of a project that covered 3 other London Boroughs. This included - I kid you not - the Ecuadorian Embassy where Julian Assange is currently holed up! This was by far the toughest part of the project (and I should also add that this included the fact I was in Brixton as well as part of this project!). Reason why it was the toughest? There was virtually no-one around. Even when you did speak to someone - the answer was, quite reguarly - "the butler does all that!"
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emordnilap



Joined: 05 Sep 2007
Posts: 14525
Location: Houǝsʇlʎ' ᴉʇ,s ɹǝɐllʎ uoʇ ʍoɹʇɥ ʇɥǝ ǝɟɟoɹʇ' pou,ʇ ǝʌǝu qoʇɥǝɹ˙

PostPosted: Wed Jun 21, 2017 2:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

raspberry-blower wrote:
The cause is an out-of-control rentier economic system that benefits the few at the expense of the many.


Precisely and not just the UK.

Quote:
198,358 homes lie empty in Ireland (about 13% of total housing stock) while 7,167 people live in emergency accommodation.

The number of vacant houses is based on preliminary figures from the 2016 Census and excludes holiday homes and derelict buildings.


Source

27 empty properties per homeless person, which could be translated as over 100 per family.
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clv101
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Joined: 24 Nov 2005
Posts: 8036

PostPosted: Wed Jun 21, 2017 9:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wow, those are some crazy numbers re empty homes.
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johnhemming2



Joined: 30 Jun 2015
Posts: 2160

PostPosted: Wed Jun 21, 2017 9:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It needs a bit of analysis. If it is done from the census and someone has two properties both of which they live in then they are not really the same as "empty homes".

Obviously on the census day one is empty and the other is not.
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vtsnowedin



Joined: 07 Jan 2011
Posts: 5203
Location: New England ,Chelsea Vermont

PostPosted: Thu Jun 22, 2017 12:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Presumably all these empty homes are owned by the titled aristocracy and the other one per centers. I wonder if that is actually the reality?
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emordnilap



Joined: 05 Sep 2007
Posts: 14525
Location: Houǝsʇlʎ' ᴉʇ,s ɹǝɐllʎ uoʇ ʍoɹʇɥ ʇɥǝ ǝɟɟoɹʇ' pou,ʇ ǝʌǝu qoʇɥǝɹ˙

PostPosted: Thu Jun 22, 2017 10:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

There's a lot - and by that, I mean a hell of a lot - of empty properties that were built during the pre-2008 boom that have never been lived in. Finished but maybe never furnished or painted. Usually estates of 10 or 20.

What those figures don't include are the thousands upon thousands of homes started but abandoned before finished. They are eyesores and should be razed.

We need a bond or insurance that either finishes the building or restores the site.
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