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Where are we on the Limits to Growth model?
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johnhemming2



Joined: 30 Jun 2015
Posts: 2161

PostPosted: Sat Jul 08, 2017 1:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The usual misunderstanding about money:
Quote:
all new currency is loaned into existence and accrues interest.
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Little John



Joined: 08 Mar 2008
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Location: UK

PostPosted: Sat Jul 08, 2017 4:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So, where does new money come from John Hemming?
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johnhemming2



Joined: 30 Jun 2015
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 08, 2017 7:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

No interest is charged on holding physical currency. You should know that as you probably have some currency (coins and notes) and I would not think you are paying anyone any interest for this. I am not myself. It just sits in my pocket neither earning nor paying interest.
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Lord Beria3



Joined: 25 Feb 2009
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Location: Moscow Russia

PostPosted: Sat Jul 08, 2017 7:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

John, you know that "money" in the modern sense is mainly electronic not physical.

Money is a form of intermediary for goods, services and resources.

During feudal centuries, the average peasant never used money and it can happen again.

Money and cash may turn out to be products of our industrial civilization.
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mikepepler
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 10, 2017 12:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Interesting thread, always worth checking in to the forums for a good dose of realism!
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johnhemming2



Joined: 30 Jun 2015
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 10, 2017 12:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lord Beria3 wrote:
John, you know that "money" in the modern sense is mainly electronic not physical.

True, but the original post referred to "all currency" which includes notes and coins.
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Little John



Joined: 08 Mar 2008
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 10, 2017 2:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

And how much of all currency is note and coins?
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johnhemming2



Joined: 30 Jun 2015
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 10, 2017 4:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

A minority, but the world "all" was used.
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johnhemming2



Joined: 30 Jun 2015
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 10, 2017 7:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Minority means under 50%. All means 100%.

Simple maths really.
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Little John



Joined: 08 Mar 2008
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 11, 2017 8:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Money_creation

Quote:
Physical currency

In modern economies, relatively little of the supply of broad money is in physical currency. For example, in December 2010 in the United States, of the $8.853 trillion in broad money supply (M2), only about 10% (or $915.7 billion) consisted of physical coins and paper money.[2] The manufacturing of new physical money is usually the responsibility of the central bank, or sometimes, the government's treasury.

Contrary to popular belief, money creation in a modern economy does not directly involve the manufacturing of new physical money, such as paper currency or metal coins. Instead, when the central bank expands the money supply through open market operations (e.g., by purchasing government bonds or commercial bank assets), it credits the accounts that the government or commercial banks hold at the central bank (termed high-powered money). Governments or commercial banks may draw on these accounts to withdraw physical money from the central bank. Commercial banks may also return soiled or spoiled currency to the central bank in exchange for new currency


In the case of the UK, a mere 2% of the money supply is in the form of notes and coins.

Quote:
United Kingdom
M4 money supply of the United Kingdom 1984–2007. In thousand millions (billions) of pounds sterling.

There are just two official UK measures. M0 is referred to as the "wide monetary base" or "narrow money" and M4 is referred to as "broad money" or simply "the money supply".

M0: Cash outside Bank of England + banks' operational deposits with Bank of England. (No longer published.)
M4: Cash outside banks (i.e. in circulation with the public and non-bank firms) + private-sector retail bank and building society deposits + private-sector wholesale bank and building society deposits and certificates of deposit.[34] In 2010 the total money supply (M4) measure in the UK was £2.2 trillion while the actual notes and coins in circulation totalled only £47 billion, 2.1% of the actual money supply.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Money_supply#United_Kingdom

So, your meaninglessly pedantic observation of not all of the money being in the form of bank debt, given that 98% if it is precisely that, usefully serves the purpose of encouraging anyone else reading that "observation" to discount your drivel.
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johnhemming2



Joined: 30 Jun 2015
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 11, 2017 8:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It depends which value for the money supply you use. If you use M0 it is a higher proportion, but that does not matter.

However, I simply pointed out that when someone said "all" money was interest bearing that it was not a true statement.

Even if only 0.00000001% is in notes and coins that means not "all" money.

It is a simple question of mathematics. All means 100%. Not 100% means not all.

Here is M0
https://tradingeconomics.com/united-kingdom/money-supply-m0

http://www.bankofengland.co.uk/banknotes/Pages/about/stats.aspx

Most of which is notes. I have not bothered to find the coins figure.

It is the liquidity money supply that is key in respect of avoiding hyper inflation.
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Little John



Joined: 08 Mar 2008
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Location: UK

PostPosted: Tue Jul 11, 2017 10:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

On the numbers quoted on your link:

https://tradingeconomics.com/united-kingdom/money-supply-m0

For the United Kingdom

Money supply M0 3529 (GBP Million)
Money supply M1 82307 (GBP Million)
Money supply M2 114632 (GBP Million)
Money supply M3 262939 (GBP Million)
Money supply (my addition) M4 463,407 (GBP Million)

Thus, the amount of cash and coins in the UK (M0), according to the link you provided, is 1.35% of the total (M4), which is even less than the number I quoted.

Give it up. You are making a fool of yourself. As usual.
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johnhemming2



Joined: 30 Jun 2015
Posts: 2161

PostPosted: Tue Jul 11, 2017 10:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Little John wrote:
Money supply M0 3529 (GBP Million)

the provided link wrote:
Money Supply M0 in the United Kingdom increased to 82402 GBP Million in June from 82064 GBP Million in May of 2017. Money Supply M0 in the United Kingdom averaged 28104.60 GBP Million from 1969 until 2017, reaching an all time high of 82402 GBP Million in June of 2017 and a record low of 3529 GBP Million in July of 1969.
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Little John



Joined: 08 Mar 2008
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 11, 2017 10:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Correct.

However, the M0 percentage was calculated correctly by me based on the "latest" column. But the data I put in the table was from the "lowest" column. So, the percentage stands:

Amended:

Money supply M0 82402 (GBP Million)
Money supply M1 1661888 (GBP Million)
Money supply M2 1652235 (GBP Million)
Money supply M3 2724725 (GBP Million)
total supply (my addition) 6121250 (GBP Million)

M0, as a percentage of that total comes to 1.35%

Furthermore, according to Wikipedia, in 2010 the numbers were:

Quote:
There are just two official UK measures. M0 is referred to as the "wide monetary base" or "narrow money" and M4 is referred to as "broad money" or simply "the money supply".

M0: Cash outside Bank of England + banks' operational deposits with Bank of England. (No longer published.)
M4: Cash outside banks (i.e. in circulation with the public and non-bank firms) + private-sector retail bank and building society deposits + private-sector wholesale bank and building society deposits and certificates of deposit. In 2010 the total money supply (M4) measure in the UK was £2.2 trillion while the actual notes and coins in circulation totalled only £47 billion, 2.1% of the actual money supply.



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Money_supply#United_Kingdom

So, since 2010, the situation appears to have deteriorated yet further
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kenneal - lagger
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Joined: 20 Sep 2006
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Location: Newbury, Berkshire

PostPosted: Tue Jul 11, 2017 3:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

johnhemming2 wrote:
.......It is the liquidity money supply that is key in respect of avoiding hyper inflation.


It isn't the liquid money supply which has resulted in the gross property price inflation of recent decades which has damaged most people's earnings and is resulting in a slowdown of the general economy. That damaging inflation is a direct result of the banks printing money at will and at no cost to themselves. Indeed the property price inflation has resulted in massive profits for the banks as Joe Public has to pay far more in interest on their mortgage or far more in rents to property owners, who often are paying a proportion of that rental straight into the *anker's coffers.

There is also collusion between *ankers, property developers and politicians to restrict the supply of new property to keep the prices, and profits, rising at the expense of the general population and the economy in general. This collusion results in more and more money being extracted from the general economy and moving into the restricted financial economy where much of it is converted into useless bits of paper and the rest is returned to the bubbles of the property and stock markets. And we all know, well anyone with a memory or knowledge of history and any common sense, which seems to exclude most in the finance "industry", that eventually all bubbles burst.

We are seeing the return of slavery to the Western world as people are increasingly working for the benefit of *ankers alone. This especially applies to those in private rentals who have no security of tenure and few rights and only see a future of increasing payments which often bear little relation to the amenity which they receive in exchange for their rent.
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