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Plague at risk of spreading to mainland Africa
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woodburner



Joined: 06 Apr 2009
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 11, 2017 2:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

PS_RalphW wrote:
Speaking as a chemistry graduate who worked on the human genome project ( in other words scientifically literate but not a specialist) I am very doubtful about the claims for vitamin c which date back to the days of Linus Pauling. It has its uses, primarily as an anti oxidant, which something anybody on a western diet could use more of,. But the human body is immensely complex, and infinitely variable. No one biological .molecule could be a 'cure' for an infectious disease like plague,. Which itself is constantly evolving. It probably impacts on many biochemical pathways , as for example aspirin does, and probably has more advantages than drawbacks for most people most of the time, but no molecule is without drawbacks in extreme excess. To use it whilst rejecting conventional medicine for something like plague is to face a very high probability of an early death.


I suggest you do some research. All diseases cause oxidative stress. Vitamin C is an anti-oxidant, as you point out. Start from there, and also look up Fredrick Klenner. There are enough other references in my earlier post. As for conventional medicine, that is run by big pharma for the benefit of their incomes, not the patient's outcomes. An example of conventional medicine

Everyone is free to go where they like for treatment, but modern conventional medicine has a lot of problems, yet claim to effectively treat chronic conditions. These chronic conditions meanwhile get steadily more common.

If you look at 41:24 in John Bergman's video "Vaccine Ignorance" you will see the figures for polio in India. Conventional medicine.
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PS_RalphW



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PostPosted: Mon Dec 11, 2017 9:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Woodburner,

Having prostate cancer, I have been reading up recently, and I have been long aware of the commercial pressures from big pharma and their dangerous influence on drug trials.

However understanding of the biochemistry of life continues to expand exponentially, and all 30,000 human genes have been identified along with almost all of the resultant active biological molecules in the human body. Now we just have to work out how they all fit together and interact. Smile

My dad had both prostate and colon cancers, the latter killing him at 91. I have prostate at 55, and my brother has colon cancer at 61. My nephew has worrying early symptoms at 35. It is becoming apparent that chronic low level inflammation caused by the immune response being constantly triggered by bad diet, environmental toxins, sedentary lifestyle and stress is a significant factor in most of our modern diseases - heart disease, cancer, autoimmune disease, etc. etc. This is being understood at the biochemical level, not just from population studies and trials. Increasingly, diet and exercise are seen as major factors in both preventing and surviving most cancers. Environmental toxins and stress are harder to avoid, especially if you are poor.

In this context vitamin C has a significant and increasing role to play, but to focus on a single molecule on the back of 60 year old research is to say that greasing the door hinges on an airliner will prevent all crashes even if you never service the engines.
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emordnilap



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PostPosted: Mon Dec 11, 2017 12:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

PS_RalphW wrote:
Increasingly, diet and exercise are seen as major factors in both preventing and surviving most cancers.


Ralph, don't talk daft. Where's the money in proper food and moderate exercise?
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PS_RalphW



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PostPosted: Mon Dec 11, 2017 1:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I had this directly from a senior oncologist last week. The future direction for cancer treatments is genetically modified monoclonal antibodies. He said that in 10 years they will be the primary treatment for almost all cancers. These are shown to be far more effective in combination with a healthy diet and exercise.

Of course, you may wonder which aspect of the treatment is the bigger factor.
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fuzzy



Joined: 29 Nov 2013
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 11, 2017 7:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's definitely a goldmine for pharma research where every new 'xxxxab' drug is a £5000/month treatment for the next 20 years [I also have an interest, as a non-symptomatic CLL patient].

Meanwhile there is 1000+ years of natural treatments that no one earns gravy by 'double blind testing'.

Anyone need a good nights sleep? See your NHS doc for an £8.50 prescription [£100 in the US??] or buy herbal 'sleep aid' from Poundstretchers for 3 pence per tab..
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clv101
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 11, 2017 8:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

woodburner wrote:
There is a problem with Wikipaedia in that there is no control over the editing. Since students are disqualified if they use wiki sourced material in their work, it should indicate it is not to be trusted. There are several references to effects of vitamin c that look to be flawed. So I suggest you use something other than wiki.


I think that's a rather outdated view of Wikipedia. When it's working well, which it usually does, Wikipedia produces high quality review articles. Whilst students are not encouraged to cite directly from Wikipedia it IS a useful resource for research for just the reason I mentioned it above. The good review articles bring together a lot of difference sources, jumping off points as I put it, are tend to be a good resource for someone wanting to get up to speed on a new area.
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woodburner



Joined: 06 Apr 2009
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 12, 2017 12:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

PS_RalphW wrote:
Woodburner,

.............level inflammation caused by the immune response being constantly triggered by bad diet, environmental toxins, sedentary lifestyle and stress is a significant factor in most of our modern diseases - heart disease, cancer, autoimmune disease, etc. etc. This is being understood at the biochemical level, not just from population studies and trials. Increasingly, diet and exercise are seen as major factors in both preventing and surviving most cancers. Environmental toxins and stress are harder to avoid, especially if you are poor.

In this context vitamin C has a significant and increasing role to play, but to focus on a single molecule on the back of 60 year old research is to say that greasing the door hinges on an airliner will prevent all crashes even if you never service the engines.


The refined and junk food components of modern western diets look to be significant in promoting diseases, and exercise is probably beneficial, though not the extreme training workouts. Walking would do.

I don’t see vitamin C a single component fix, nor have I ever said it could be, but it is lacking in most peoples diets, and is impossible to get in sufficient quantities from food alone when trying to deal with diseases. It seems to be the director which allows many processes to proceed correctly.
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woodburner



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PostPosted: Tue Dec 12, 2017 12:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wikipedia might be ok in some subjects, but there are many instances of articles, presenting facts which are changed to suit a later editor, that then misrepresent those facts. Medicine is a fertile ground for such changes.
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Little John



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PostPosted: Tue Dec 12, 2017 1:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, Wikipedia shows the history of all changes made to a given entry. So, it should be reasonably easy to show where biased revisions have been made to articles on, say, the efficacy of vitamin C. So, it would be good to see evidence of those biased revisions Woodburner.
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emordnilap



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PostPosted: Tue Dec 12, 2017 12:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Vitamin C is destroyed by heat as well as being leaching into cooking water, so it's not surprising people don't get enough. I doubt if the average cooked meal contains any or any use, though I'm told broccoli is one of the best sources.

Fruit tends to keep its vitamin C so a half pint of juice, an average smoothie or several pieces of fresh fruit per day should be enough.
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adam2
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 12, 2017 1:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Does gin with orange juice count Very Happy
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RenewableCandy



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PostPosted: Tue Dec 12, 2017 7:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, and so does my regular glass of grape juice (home-fermented) Very Happy
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emordnilap



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PostPosted: Wed Dec 13, 2017 12:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

adam2 wrote:
Does gin with orange juice count Very Happy


When eaten with a large serving of fresh salad, then most definitely yes.
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woodburner



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PostPosted: Wed Dec 13, 2017 2:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

emordnilap wrote:
Vitamin C is destroyed by heat as well as being leaching into cooking water, so it's not surprising people don't get enough. I doubt if the average cooked meal contains any or any use, though I'm told broccoli is one of the best sources.

Fruit tends to keep its vitamin C so a half pint of juice, an average smoothie or several pieces of fresh fruit per day should be enough.


“Should be enough”?
Under what conditions?

Vitamin C dosing will vary depending on system needs, so to say several pieces of fruit shoud be enough may not be true.
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emordnilap



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PostPosted: Wed Dec 13, 2017 3:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

woodburner wrote:
“Should be enough”?
Under what conditions?

Vitamin C dosing will vary depending on system needs, so to say several pieces of fruit shoud be enough may not be true.


Normal conditions - everyone should be eating several pieces a day. If you're under stress or know you've been near someone with illness, then up it and consider supplementing it. Obsessing isn't going to cure illness. Possibly the opposite.

My 'pieces' of fruit: an orange or grapefruit, a banana, an apple and several other fruits every day. I stay healthy.

There's also a lot to be said for eating uncooked or very lightly cooked food when it comes to nutrients.
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