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Insulation and air tightness standards
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vtsnowedin



Joined: 07 Jan 2011
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Location: New England ,Chelsea Vermont

PostPosted: Fri Jan 19, 2018 1:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

cubes wrote:
That's always going to be the case with a basic tick-box exercise though. No reason to spend more money doing it properly if you can get a tick in that box cheaper.

Are people in the UK so afraid of being thought wrong that they don't post the actual results a year or two after the house is completed and the actual energy consumption is known? I'm surprised to find that the UK is not on the leading edge of sorting out energy efficiency winners from sleazeball grab your money scams.
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kenneal - lagger
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 19, 2018 1:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

These lasts post high light what I said above. None of you who have commented on my post have knowledge of the way a house can and should be designed and you all contribute to a forum discussing energy efficiency. So what chance is there for Mr/s Jo/e Public?

Yes, houses built to current Building Regs. consistently fail to live up to their design parameters while houses built to PassivHaus standards consistently achieve or exceed their design parameters. What is the government doing about it? They are asking the Building Research Establishment to investigate. The institution which designed the parameters is being funded to investigate its own failure!

PIR boards in a cavity wall are a known problem to those who have any interest in the quality of build rather than those who are primarily interested in the cost. There are PIR boards which have half lap joints which are a better bet than boards which just butt up against each other but they are all reliant upon the brickie installing them properly but the brickie has never been taught how to install them properly because he hasn't been on a training course since he got his apprenticeship (even if he has done one!).

The average Britain has no knowledge of what their house should do so unless it is exceedingly badly performing they don't know that they have a problem to complain about. Even if they do complain NHBC isn't interested because they represent their own interests and those of their customer, the builder, rather than the house buyer. Unless the house is close to falling down NHBC don't want to get involved as it will cost them money. Building Control is usually in the same area so they are equally useless.

So you have a Regulation writer which has an interest in investigating the problem for as long as they can because they are being funded while they do so; you have designers who don't really know what they are doing and whose clients don't really want them to know because it would cost them extra money on the designed product; you have a building industry dominated by a few national house builders, in whose pocket the government is, which is more interested in turning a maximum profit than building top quality houses (quality is defined by the standard of the cooking are fixtures and fittings and bathroom fittings according to Mr & Mrs House - Buyer); you have an insurance industry which is more interested in not paying out rather than making their clients, who are the building industry rather than the house buyer, do anything about a problem; and you have buyers who know nothing about the problem that they are being lumbered with and even if they do know something are more interested in saving a few tens of pounds a year by changing energy supplier rather than reducing their energy use by a thousand pounds a year. The last point is encouraged by the government whose mates in the energy supply industry aren't at all interested in reducing the amount of gas sold and burnt and dropping GDP.

There is actually a conspiracy to keep energy use high and the public aren't aware of that either.
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clv101
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 20, 2018 6:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

oobers wrote:
A friend involved with building air tightness once told me that most of the new build housing with PIR boards inserted in the cavities are nowhere near meeting the regulations as no attempt is made to close the gaps between boards. It does make you wonder how many houses given a decent energy rating based on hypothetical build standards are actually very poor.


I would never trust someone else to install PIR boards. Hard to do well, can't be seen, a lot of temptation to do a crappy job. If anyone must use PIR - do the job yourself. Pretty much all mass produced new-build housing is 'very poor'.
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vtsnowedin



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PostPosted: Sat Jan 20, 2018 7:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kenneal - lagger wrote:
These lasts post high light what I said above. None of you who have commented on my post have knowledge of the way a house can and should be designed and you all contribute to a forum discussing energy efficiency.

Oh really? Thanks for reminding me of the extent of my ignorance.
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kenneal - lagger
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 21, 2018 6:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Any time, VT. Wink
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woodburner



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PostPosted: Sun Jan 21, 2018 6:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
There is actually a conspiracy to keep energy use high and the public aren't aware of that either.


The idea is to keep all spends as high as possible as the indicator of a healthy is increasing GDP. You can’t have spending falling, just not acceptable.
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 21, 2018 7:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

woodburner wrote:
Quote:
There is actually a conspiracy to keep energy use high and the public aren't aware of that either.


The idea is to keep all spends as high as possible as the indicator of a healthy is increasing GDP. You can’t have spending falling, just not acceptable.

They are not clever enough to have an undetected pro energy consumption conspiracy. Rolling Eyes
And spending rises to meet income so a major savings in energy consumption would be offset not by increases in savings accounts but in spending on other products and services and not reduce GDP at all.
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BritDownUnder



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PostPosted: Mon Jan 22, 2018 3:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kenneal - lagger wrote:
These lasts post high light what I said above. None of you who have commented on my post have knowledge of the way a house can and should be designed and you all contribute to a forum discussing energy efficiency. So what chance is there for Mr/s Jo/e Public?


Can't speak for the UK anymore as I don't live there but the value of insulation was certainly in the public awareness in Australia recently as the previous Labor (correct spelling btw) government had a home insulation scheme that became so politically charged that it was dropped by the incoming Coalition government on cost and safety grounds. I think there was also another reason which I have used the underline and bold to indicate, ha ha.

I have not personally built a house as I have either been too poor or too busy. There are grants and stamp duty relief available to do so in Australia and I would certainly do so in the future when I am a little older, wealthier and less busy.

One thing I have found, and I was made aware of this by my father, is the value of reducing drafts through doorways, windows and weatherboard. For a relatively small monetary amount (maybe $100) and a few weekends spent installing the effect on temperature stability and increase in comfort was immediately noticeable. If I were to run my wood fire again I would have to open a window or door to allow enough air in but since I have solar this would only be in the event of an emergency.
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kenneal - lagger
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 22, 2018 5:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The air supply to a wood burning or other stove is best supplied by a wall or floor vent close to or directly supplying said stove so that there are no draughts blowing across the room to cause unnecessary air movement. The movement of air will make the room feel cooler than it actually is so should be avoided.
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woodburner



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PostPosted: Mon Jan 22, 2018 7:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It’s all very well getting rid of draughts and consequently reducing ventilation. But you might be glad of some air movement and ventilation if you or somebody on an unsuitable diet breaks wind.
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kenneal - lagger
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 22, 2018 7:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If someone does that you can open a window for a bit. I would far rather have to open a window occasionally than have to sit in a draught paying a fortune for unnecessary fuel being burnt to keep me comfortable.

I suggest that you research "thermal comfort".
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woodburner



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PostPosted: Mon Jan 22, 2018 7:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

“thermal comfort” - jumper doesn't it? or maybe a blanket. You might like minimal air changes but I want more than you do.
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Little John



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PostPosted: Mon Jan 22, 2018 9:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think I am with Woodburner on this. A lot of modern problems have been caused by hermetically sealed houses.
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vtsnowedin



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PostPosted: Tue Jan 23, 2018 2:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kenneal - lagger wrote:
The air supply to a wood burning or other stove is best supplied by a wall or floor vent close to or directly supplying said stove so that there are no draughts blowing across the room to cause unnecessary air movement. The movement of air will make the room feel cooler than it actually is so should be avoided.
Yes I've seen this done quite satisfactorily. Two four inch dia. pipes brought from the outside under the floor and exiting under the stove between the stove's legs where nobody could step into them. Rodent grates on both ends of each pipe of course. It had the advantage of acting as a cold trap from a intended dip in the lines so that when the stove was not operating no cold air was drawn up into the house. The math on the cross sectional area doesn't work out exactly for a six inch stove pipe but as the stove has a damper plate in the line and is seldom run wide open it works fine in practice.
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kenneal - lagger
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 23, 2018 2:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Little John wrote:
I think I am with Woodburner on this. A lot of modern problems have been caused by hermetically sealed houses.


A lot of modern problems have been caused by people being too lazy or ignorant to open a trickle vent or window in an hermetically sealed house. People nowadays expect every thing to happen without any human intervention. That is the real problem.

Another problem in older (50s to 80s) houses is the inadequacy of the insulation of the structure which leads to cold spots, condensation, mould and then health problems. In these houses the amount of ventilation required to stop mould means that heating is unaffordable.

In the old days inglenooks were the answer to draughty houses. For the uninitiated an inglenook fireplace is one where you actually sit in the fireplace with the fire to get full advantage of it because the rest of the room was so cold because it was uninsulated and extremely draughty.
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