PowerSwitch Main Page
PowerSwitch
The UK's Peak Oil Discussion Forum & Community
 
 FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups   RegisterRegister 
 ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 

Deep Adaption
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    PowerSwitch Forum Index -> Climate Change
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
johnhemming2



Joined: 30 Jun 2015
Posts: 2159

PostPosted: Sun Mar 25, 2018 9:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mikepepler wrote:
What we're doing with renewable energy is like helping this person with their debt while ignoring the addiction, which is just as harmful to them. The root causes of the problem have to be addressed.

I disagree with the argument that we should not have renewable energy and that it would be better to have no energy.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
clv101
Site Admin


Joined: 24 Nov 2005
Posts: 8080

PostPosted: Sun Mar 25, 2018 11:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

johnhemming2 wrote:
mikepepler wrote:
What we're doing with renewable energy is like helping this person with their debt while ignoring the addiction, which is just as harmful to them. The root causes of the problem have to be addressed.

I disagree with the argument that we should not have renewable energy and that it would be better to have no energy.


I think the question is, how likely is it that contemporary renewable energy deployments are putting us on a road to a 'sustainable' energy system? I fear it's more likely that their deployments will just support, prolong what is fundamentally an unsustainable energy system. The 'total damage' over, say the next 50 years *may* be greater due to renewable deployments vs a world without such deployments.

However, if a sustainable future energy system is possible (just unlikely), maybe we should be pushing ahead with renewables even though the chance of success is small.
_________________
PowerSwitch on Facebook | The Oil Drum | Twitter | Blog
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
woodburner



Joined: 06 Apr 2009
Posts: 4025

PostPosted: Sun Mar 25, 2018 11:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nothing is sustainable while there is population increase.
_________________
To become an extremist, hang around with people you agree with. Cass Sunstein
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
mikepepler
Site Admin


Joined: 24 Nov 2005
Posts: 2924
Location: Rye, UK

PostPosted: Mon Mar 26, 2018 9:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

johnhemming2 wrote:
mikepepler wrote:
What we're doing with renewable energy is like helping this person with their debt while ignoring the addiction, which is just as harmful to them. The root causes of the problem have to be addressed.

I disagree with the argument that we should not have renewable energy and that it would be better to have no energy.

That's not what I'm saying. I'm arguing that renewable energy alone will not suffice, and is actually less important that fixing the root causes of the predicament. We should keep building renewable energy in case the root causes do get addressed, but it should probably not be the main priority.

Of course, as UE said above, the root causes won't acknowledged, never mind addressed, in time to make a difference - that time is in the past already. It would still be better to acknowledge them late, maybe it would help a remnant of humanity make it through to the other side...
_________________
Mike

"Deal with reality or reality will deal with you"
Dr Colin Campbell

http://peplers.blogspot.com
http://peakoilupdate.blogspot.com
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
woodburner



Joined: 06 Apr 2009
Posts: 4025

PostPosted: Mon Mar 26, 2018 12:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

A remnant of humanity will make it through to the other side. If it doesn’t, ho hum, it’s just another extinction, no loss to the planet.
_________________
To become an extremist, hang around with people you agree with. Cass Sunstein
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
johnhemming2



Joined: 30 Jun 2015
Posts: 2159

PostPosted: Mon Mar 26, 2018 1:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mikepepler wrote:
less important that fixing the root causes of the predicament.

This is where people tend to disagree as to what the predicament is and what the root causes of the predicament are and what the changes are that are proposed that will make any improvements.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
kenneal - lagger
Site Admin


Joined: 20 Sep 2006
Posts: 11267
Location: Newbury, Berkshire

PostPosted: Mon Mar 26, 2018 2:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

One of the root causes is human greed and the desire of a few, by no means all, to acquire untold riches and power. Until we address the problem of the super rich, who are driving the growth model, we will get no where.
_________________
Action is the antidote to despair - Joan Baez
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
clv101
Site Admin


Joined: 24 Nov 2005
Posts: 8080

PostPosted: Mon Mar 26, 2018 3:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

johnhemming2 wrote:
mikepepler wrote:
less important that fixing the root causes of the predicament.

This is where people tend to disagree as to what the predicament is and what the root causes of the predicament are and what the changes are that are proposed that will make any improvements.


Could you articulate your view of the (a) predicament and (b) root causes?

In fact it would be great is several people could write a few clear sentences on their own view of our predicament and its root causes. The differences in opinion might be illuminating.
_________________
PowerSwitch on Facebook | The Oil Drum | Twitter | Blog
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Little John



Joined: 08 Mar 2008
Posts: 7009
Location: UK

PostPosted: Mon Mar 26, 2018 4:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Our predicament is over-population/over-consumption in a finite environment

The root cause is the evolution of a species that, like any other, will reproduce to the point of environmental constraints and which has also evolved the capacity to exceed the ordinary annual energy constraints and tap into stored energy - most notably in the form of hydrocarbons.

As for "greed" - all humans are "greedy" because all of life is "greedy". It's the natural way of life to be thus. Some humans are more greedy than others, to be sure, and some humans are more capable, for a variety of reasons, to be able to satisfy that greed, This is just the gausian distribution in action. Again, this is just a feature of life.

Unless something stops us - because we can't stop ourselves - we're f*cked.


Last edited by Little John on Mon Mar 26, 2018 5:04 pm; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Yahoo Messenger
woodburner



Joined: 06 Apr 2009
Posts: 4025

PostPosted: Mon Mar 26, 2018 4:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kenneal - lagger wrote:
One of the root causes is human greed and the desire of a few, by no means all, to acquire untold riches and power. Until we address the problem of the super rich, who are driving the growth model, we will get no where.


Yep, I am greedy and have the desire to acquire untold riches and power. Unfortunately I am also lazy and so have failed on both counts Wink
_________________
To become an extremist, hang around with people you agree with. Cass Sunstein
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
vtsnowedin



Joined: 07 Jan 2011
Posts: 5266
Location: New England ,Chelsea Vermont

PostPosted: Mon Mar 26, 2018 5:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The predicament is running hard up against the limits to growth and the earths resources.
The root cause is the rise in the earths human population past 7.8 billion headed to 9.7 billion.
The secondary factor is the enormous use of energy by the Western developed countries. Much of this energy is needlessly wasted as shown by the USA's per capita consumption of 7032 Kg/year/cap. vs. the EU's 3800 average.
Secondary factor no. 2 is the desire of developing countries to achieve a Western lifestyle along with it's energy consumption rates.
No. 3 is the 28 African countries that will double in population by 2050 where there are already zero spare resources to feed them or improve their standard of living. Many of these presently consume less then 1000Kg/yr./cap.
Drastic birth control (one child per woman after age 21) would be the only non war solution to the population problem but that is impossible to achieve in the third world so starvation and war it will be.
Nothing else proposed has a chance of fixing the problem.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
RenewableCandy



Joined: 12 Sep 2007
Posts: 12654
Location: York

PostPosted: Mon Mar 26, 2018 5:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

RenewableCandy, in 'The Price of Time' wrote:
Nobody — as far as Verity knew at the time — had believed the problem her little sketch satirised was relevant, or even real.
Only recently had she found, on the Reference, a small group who had set themselves up to address it. She had added her name. She had no idea how one campaigned on such fundamental matters without appearing, well, totally Hatstand.
But desperate times...
She grabbed the phone,
“Tim, this is bigger than Energy. Don’t take that as an insult, please! This is... Put it this way: all the Renewables we could ever build won’t get us out of the mess we’re in if we don’t crack this. We’ll have energy but we’ll just run out of something else instead like food, or land. There’s even a bloke who says Oxygen, because of something to do with the sea—”


Clue: "this" isn't population...
_________________
Soyez réaliste. Demandez l'impossible.
Stories
The Price of Time
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
vtsnowedin



Joined: 07 Jan 2011
Posts: 5266
Location: New England ,Chelsea Vermont

PostPosted: Mon Mar 26, 2018 6:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

RenewableCandy wrote:
RenewableCandy, in 'The Price of Time' wrote:
Nobody — as far as Verity knew at the time — had believed the problem her little sketch satirised was relevant, or even real.
Only recently had she found, on the Reference, a small group who had set themselves up to address it. She had added her name. She had no idea how one campaigned on such fundamental matters without appearing, well, totally Hatstand.
But desperate times...
She grabbed the phone,
“Tim, this is bigger than Energy. Don’t take that as an insult, please! This is... Put it this way: all the Renewables we could ever build won’t get us out of the mess we’re in if we don’t crack this. We’ll have energy but we’ll just run out of something else instead like food, or land. There’s even a bloke who says Oxygen, because of something to do with the sea—”


Clue: "this" isn't population...
Well don't keep us in suspense. Which this is it?
Sorry I haven't gotten around to getting my hands on your book yet. I plan to but procrastination is now my main occupation. Embarassed
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
woodburner



Joined: 06 Apr 2009
Posts: 4025

PostPosted: Mon Mar 26, 2018 7:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It is population vt.

Without the population the problems wouldn’t exist. It’s just playing with words.

India is short of water, not just a drought, much worse. Maybe something will happen there, as no amount of food aid could fix the problem.
_________________
To become an extremist, hang around with people you agree with. Cass Sunstein
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
RenewableCandy



Joined: 12 Sep 2007
Posts: 12654
Location: York

PostPosted: Mon Mar 26, 2018 8:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gah that's Spoilers innit Very Happy ?
_________________
Soyez réaliste. Demandez l'impossible.
Stories
The Price of Time
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    PowerSwitch Forum Index -> Climate Change All times are GMT + 1 Hour
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next
Page 2 of 3

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group