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Much of Western America Will Be Uninhabitable In 40 Years
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vtsnowedin



Joined: 07 Jan 2011
Posts: 5203
Location: New England ,Chelsea Vermont

PostPosted: Sun Sep 16, 2018 10:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lord Beria3 wrote:
Not capitalism as we know it!!!

Greer has already predicted the end of money within our declining industrial civilization within 50 to 150 years.

Corruptions of Capitalism will fade away but the base of "If I work smarter and harder and produce more product then the competition" Will survive long after every other strategy has been sent to the ash heap of history.
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Little John



Joined: 08 Mar 2008
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 17, 2018 12:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

vtsnowedin wrote:
Lord Beria3 wrote:
Not capitalism as we know it!!!

Greer has already predicted the end of money within our declining industrial civilization within 50 to 150 years.

Corruptions of Capitalism will fade away but the base of "If I work smarter and harder and produce more product then the competition" Will survive long after every other strategy has been sent to the ash heap of history.
That's not capitalism. That's simply a free market. And they don't exist in mature, finite market places.

Last edited by Little John on Mon Sep 17, 2018 7:11 am; edited 1 time in total
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vtsnowedin



Joined: 07 Jan 2011
Posts: 5203
Location: New England ,Chelsea Vermont

PostPosted: Mon Sep 17, 2018 12:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Little John wrote:
vtsnowedin wrote:
Lord Beria3 wrote:
Not capitalism as we know it!!!

Greer has already predicted the end of money within our declining industrial civilization within 50 to 150 years.

Corruptions of Capitalism will fade away but the base of "If I work smarter and harder and produce more product then the competition" Will survive long after every other strategy has been sent to the ash heap of history.
That's not capitalism. That's simply a free market. And they don't exist in mature, finite, market places.

But they will prevail in collapsed chaotic market places.
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kenneal - lagger
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 17, 2018 12:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lord Beria3 wrote:
....Greer has already predicted the end of money within our declining industrial civilization within 50 to 150 years.


I doubt that we will have an industrial civilisation to use money in within the next 50 to 150 years so I suppose that the prediction is true then.
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Lord Beria3



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PostPosted: Tue Sep 18, 2018 7:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It will be back to raw capitalism!
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UndercoverElephant



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PostPosted: Tue Sep 18, 2018 8:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Money won't end, ever. Electronic money will end, and fiat money might end, but gold and silver as currency will not end so long as there a few million humans still alive.
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vtsnowedin



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PostPosted: Tue Sep 18, 2018 10:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You've seen the movie where the working girls in Texas had to take their pay in chickens? And there are documented cases where doctors also took chickens as payment during the same period so the medium of exchange changed but capitalism carried through.
I expect that no matter what happens people will be able to strike a bargain for some of what you have for some of what I want.
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emordnilap



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PostPosted: Wed Sep 19, 2018 10:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

vtsnowedin wrote:
You've seen the movie where the working girls in Texas had to take their pay in chickens? And there are documented cases where doctors also took chickens as payment during the same period so the medium of exchange changed but capitalism carried through.
I expect that no matter what happens people will be able to strike a bargain for some of what you have for some of what I want.


Exactly. Most people can't get their head round the fact that money is actually worthless. It's only oil in machine.

I did a gig one Friday night, then handed over the money I got to a builder's providers. It was like playing music and getting sand and cement as reward. Perfect.

Recently, I cut up a pile of wood for someone and got paid in wood.

A neighbour has lots of beetroot. I have lots of apples. Problem solved - he got more apples than I got beetroot, of course, which reflects value.

I'd like to see more barter. I detest the economic system as it currently stands.
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adam2
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 19, 2018 11:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Barter has its merits but is often very awkward.

How for example are several years surplus crops to be exchanged for a house or a horse.
How is labour or crops to be exchanged for goods manufactured some distance away.

All but the most primitive societies need money. Fiat money is fine as a short term medium of exchange, just don't trust it as a long term store of wealth, nor for vast amounts.

Banks are likewise needed as a safe place to keep money, a place to save surplus cash and a place from where money may be borrowed to fund say a new business.
What we DONT need is banks "too big to fail" or banks bigger than the real economy. Nor should gambling with other peoples money be allowed.
Basic banking services are a requirement for trade with people whom you don't know, and for trade with persons or organisations who are a significant distance away.
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emordnilap



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PostPosted: Wed Sep 19, 2018 12:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

adam2 wrote:
Barter has its merits but is often very awkward.

How for example are several years surplus crops to be exchanged for a house or a horse.
How is labour or crops to be exchanged for goods manufactured some distance away.

All but the most primitive societies need money. Fiat money is fine as a short term medium of exchange, just don't trust it as a long term store of wealth, nor for vast amounts.

Banks are likewise needed as a safe place to keep money, a place to save surplus cash and a place from where money may be borrowed to fund say a new business.
What we DONT need is banks "too big to fail" or banks bigger than the real economy. Nor should gambling with other peoples money be allowed.
Basic banking services are a requirement for trade with people whom you don't know, and for trade with persons or organisations who are a significant distance away.


I know.

I'm talking about day-to-day living, keeping it simple, not the big stuff.
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vtsnowedin



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PostPosted: Wed Sep 19, 2018 11:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

adam2 wrote:
Barter has its merits but is often very awkward.

How for example are several years surplus crops to be exchanged for a house or a horse.
How is labour or crops to be exchanged for goods manufactured some distance away.

All but the most primitive societies need money. Fiat money is fine as a short term medium of exchange, just don't trust it as a long term store of wealth, nor for vast amounts.

Banks are likewise needed as a safe place to keep money, a place to save surplus cash and a place from where money may be borrowed to fund say a new business.
What we DONT need is banks "too big to fail" or banks bigger than the real economy. Nor should gambling with other peoples money be allowed.
Basic banking services are a requirement for trade with people whom you don't know, and for trade with persons or organisations who are a significant distance away.
I think the biggest blunder the bankers (and the regulators that let them do it) made was allowing people (or banks) to buy credit default swaps against bonds they did not own. This is akin to buying fire insurance in a ghetto for a house you don't own. After enough people have insurance against that house the likelihood of it mysteriously burning down rises exponentially. If Lehman Brothers could have only sold one policy to the holders or each of those toxic "mortgage backed securities" they would have not gone toes up when some of those went sour.
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kenneal - lagger
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 20, 2018 10:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

As I understand it there are enough credit default swaps in existence to blow the whole world monetary system apart several times over!
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fuzzy



Joined: 29 Nov 2013
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 20, 2018 2:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

And the banks like it that way - we are all in this together. A non corrupt gov would simply declare that all credit default swaps and other derivatives age faster than currency. They lose value at money value - [x] x time, so that they exponentially disappear in a controlled decline.

[x] is simply adjusted to a value that avoids the feckless bankers creating chaos.

Then again, a non corrupt gov would allow state banked retail current accounts, and we could pull our cash out the whole rancid system.
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Potemkin Villager



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PostPosted: Thu Sep 20, 2018 5:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Now if the money system captured all the values and costs of human activities we might be getting somewhere.
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