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Guatemala/Mexico migrant crisis
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UndercoverElephant



Joined: 10 Mar 2008
Posts: 9706
Location: south east England

PostPosted: Wed Oct 24, 2018 12:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

emordnilap wrote:
We Are Not Migrating, We Are Fleeing

Quote:
Opponents of human migration assume that with enough guards, fences and walls you can stop the movement of people; but ultimately all this does is put already vulnerable people into an even more precarious situation.


Not sure how playing with language helps.

"We're not migrating; we're fleeing." is a false dichotomy. They are doing both. And your quote is a non-sequitor: even if it puts already vulnerable people into an even more precarious position, guards, fences and walls can stop the movement of people.

The problem for future migrants is that if groups like this successfully end up in the United States, it will eventually lead to somebody worse than Trump in the Whitehouse - somebody who will actually do what Trump will have failed to do if the migrants get in. For him this is judgement day - he's already expected to fail in so many other ways, but if there's one pledge he made that he *must* fulfil, it is keeping people like this out of the US.
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adam2
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 24, 2018 1:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Little John wrote:
This could just as easily end with mass killings at borders. Some countries' populations will roll over.

Some will not.


Eventually, yes I agree that there will mass killings at borders, not yet though in my view.
In countries badly affected by large scale migration there IS considerable public demand for stricter border controls, this being reflected in election results and the like.

There is NOT at present public support for large scale killings at borders.

Public opinion is not logical in such circumstances. If say 1,000 natives in some foreign hell hole die of disease, hunger, or violence, no one much cares. "it happens all the time" "bad government" "they started the conflict"

If however a similar number are shot by border guards whilst seeking entrance to the USA or Europe, there would be public outrage.
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kenneal - lagger
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 25, 2018 2:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

"We are not migrating, we are fleeing" moves them from awful economic migrant to refugees is the inference, I suppose.

Thank goodness that we have a moat and a very stormy moat at times. At the moment there might be sympathy for people drowning in the channel as there is for people drowning in the Med but when higher food prices as a result of shortages due to climate change start to take hold there will be less sympathy from most people.

There will always be a few who will still say that anyone should be allowed to come here.
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Little John



Joined: 08 Mar 2008
Posts: 6864
Location: UK

PostPosted: Thu Oct 25, 2018 5:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

adam2 wrote:
Little John wrote:
This could just as easily end with mass killings at borders. Some countries' populations will roll over.

Some will not.


Eventually, yes I agree that there will mass killings at borders, not yet though in my view.
In countries badly affected by large scale migration there IS considerable public demand for stricter border controls, this being reflected in election results and the like.

There is NOT at present public support for large scale killings at borders.

Public opinion is not logical in such circumstances. If say 1,000 natives in some foreign hell hole die of disease, hunger, or violence, no one much cares. "it happens all the time" "bad government" "they started the conflict"

If however a similar number are shot by border guards whilst seeking entrance to the USA or Europe, there would be public outrage.
When the first mass, uncontrolled influx happens in a major Western country, all hell will break loose. I believe we are closer than you think.
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vtsnowedin



Joined: 07 Jan 2011
Posts: 5233
Location: New England ,Chelsea Vermont

PostPosted: Thu Oct 25, 2018 7:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

adam2 wrote:
Little John wrote:
This could just as easily end with mass killings at borders. Some countries' populations will roll over.

Some will not.


Eventually, yes I agree that there will mass killings at borders, not yet though in my view.
In countries badly affected by large scale migration there IS considerable public demand for stricter border controls, this being reflected in election results and the like.

There is NOT at present public support for large scale killings at borders.

Public opinion is not logical in such circumstances. If say 1,000 natives in some foreign hell hole die of disease, hunger, or violence, no one much cares. "it happens all the time" "bad government" "they started the conflict"

If however a similar number are shot by border guards whilst seeking entrance to the USA or Europe, there would be public outrage.
I doubt that there will ever be mass killings at the US border. A shoot to kill order if given would be publicly announced and only a few would have to be actually shot before the rest would turn away.
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Little John



Joined: 08 Mar 2008
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 25, 2018 10:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

vtsnowedin wrote:
I doubt that there will ever be mass killings at the US border. A shoot to kill order if given would be publicly announced and only a few would have to be actually shot before the rest would turn away.


That depends on how desperate they are. In other words, if not getting in means they must return to a fate worse than death. This is where this all eventually ends. It's just a matter of when.
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vtsnowedin



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PostPosted: Thu Oct 25, 2018 10:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Little John wrote:
vtsnowedin wrote:
I doubt that there will ever be mass killings at the US border. A shoot to kill order if given would be publicly announced and only a few would have to be actually shot before the rest would turn away.


That depends on how desperate they are. In other words, if not getting in means they must return to a fate worse than death. This is where this all eventually ends. It's just a matter of when.
Their odds of survival back in Guatemala or Honduras would be much higher then facing US army riflemen. They need to solve their own problems at home and not export them to the US.
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Little John



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PostPosted: Thu Oct 25, 2018 11:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You really are a brainwashed fool V.

Of the three main South American countries these people are coming from:

In Guatemala, the US helped stage a coup against the democratically-elected government in favour of a military junta, which it then spent decades supporting despite well-documented human rights abuses. It’s a similar story in El Salvador. Honduras did not have a civil war, but it was used as a staging ground for the Contras, a far-right guerrilla group backed by the Reagan administration in neighbouring Nicaragua’s civil war. These wars – backed by the American intelligence agencies – destabilised the region and subjected generations to a cycle of extreme poverty and violence.

Guatemala and Honduras both have corrupt political classes and this would, no doubt, have been somewhat true irrespective of the American actions in those countries. But, a significant portion of the current condition of those countries unarguably lies at the feet of successive US governments.
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vtsnowedin



Joined: 07 Jan 2011
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Location: New England ,Chelsea Vermont

PostPosted: Thu Oct 25, 2018 11:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Little John wrote:
You really are a brainwashed fool V.

Of the three main South American countries these people are coming from:

In Guatemala, the US helped stage a coup against the democratically-elected government in favour of a military junta, which it then spent decades supporting despite well-documented human rights abuses. It’s a similar story in El Salvador. Honduras did not have a civil war, but it was used as a staging ground for the Contras, a far-right guerrilla group backed by the Reagan administration in neighbouring Nicaragua’s civil war. These wars – backed by the American intelligence agencies – destabilised the region and subjected generations to a cycle of extreme poverty and violence.

Guatemala and Honduras both have corrupt political classes and this would, no doubt, have been somewhat true irrespective of the American actions in those countries. But, a significant portion of the current condition of those countries unarguably lies at the feet of successive US governments.
So the current situation in central America is the Reagan administration's fault and every succeeding president has perpetuated the fault? OK got it!
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Little John



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PostPosted: Thu Oct 25, 2018 11:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

With the possible, though rapidly diminishing, exception of Trump, who your president happens to be at any given time is irrelevant. The forces in your country that enact these policies run far deeper than merely the president.
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adam2
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 29, 2018 11:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

5,000 American troops sent to the Mexican border to repel the "invasion"

Sounds a bit like electioneering to me, since the mid term elections are due very shortly, but the migrants are not expected at the border for about a month.

To reinforce a border with extra military personnel and equipment is prudent if a large and potentially illegal influx is expected, but the timing makes this look like a political gesture.
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Little John



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PostPosted: Tue Oct 30, 2018 2:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's no less political than the exceptionally coincidental timing of this mass migration.
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boisdevie



Joined: 26 Dec 2012
Posts: 293
Location: N Lancashire

PostPosted: Tue Oct 30, 2018 8:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Little John wrote:
It's no less political than the exceptionally coincidental timing of this mass migration.


Exactly, I wonder just who is helping these people on their walk as they'll need lots of support? Maybe Im' just cynical but the timing was great if you're of the left and want to put pressure on Trump.
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vtsnowedin



Joined: 07 Jan 2011
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 30, 2018 9:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think it is a tossup as to which side gets the most votes out of this and the actual instigators may well have made a mistake. The Trump voters see Trump taking positive action against this illegal invasion and that fires up the right wing base. The Democrats see it as another example of Trump's racism and incompetence which fires up their base.
Quite a few people in the middle see it as a mater of deciding who gets to enter the country and would like to see one side or the other come up with a policy that is both effective and fair, both to the immigrants and to the country as a whole.
Not much chance of seeing anything like that this week.
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Little John



Joined: 08 Mar 2008
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 30, 2018 10:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

boisdevie wrote:
Little John wrote:
It's no less political than the exceptionally coincidental timing of this mass migration.


Exactly, I wonder just who is helping these people on their walk as they'll need lots of support? Maybe Im' just cynical but the timing was great if you're of the left and want to put pressure on Trump.
It's not the "left" driving this. It is the globalist flank of the ruling class driving it against the nation state flank of the ruling class. The bourgeois, globalist "left" section of our political class are just complicit tools employed in that war between the different flanks of the ruling class.
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