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Extinction Rebellion, ongoing disscussion.
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kenneal - lagger
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 17, 2019 1:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think that they are protesting FOR all of the above list, Adam.

The Conservative Environmental Network, in conjunction with 38 Degrees, held a lobby in Parliament a couple of months ago in favour of land based wind turbines. There are "protests" going on just not quite so "in your face" as the current one.

The socialist workers even turn out for right wing demos!!
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RevdTess



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PostPosted: Wed Apr 17, 2019 2:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I once heard a member of the 'black bloc' from an anarchist demo (ie the ones who are happy to cause criminal damage and get arrested) say to a more peaceful fellow protester that they do what they do because it gains the more sensible voices time in the mainstream media to put their point across.

There are of course lots of comments on social media about how the protesters are 'worthless scum' who haven't a single bar of soap between them, but unlike marches that get ignored or watched from helicopters where the only interesting question is 'how many were marching?', with arrests comes airtime where the sensible talking heads can 'explain' why all these people are happy to damage their lives and jobs with police convictions.

That's not to say it makes any difference in our laws, but my sense is that when the issue drops off the radar completely (because we're obsessed with Brexit), it really does move everything down the political agenda. Subsidies for renewables vanish, wind farms are blocked by planners, and people go back to insisting "consumption is all a personal choice".

If my experience of the decades since Swampy and the eco-warriors has taught me anything, it's that it's never going to be enough for individual activists to cut down on meat, airflight, private cars etc. What's needed is national communal action that affects everyone whether we like it or not. This is what the climate extinction people are fighting for, and I think they're totally right. I can't say I'd want to get arrested, but as i heard them put it, what else can they do?

What's most depressing for me is seeing the number of people who would happily accept a 10% cut in the UK's GDP for the sake of ending EU free movement, regaining sovereignty and all that, but would firmly resist any political action to reduce climate change because it's 'individual choice'. It just shows how radically divided our culture has become. I'm pretty sure it was always like this, we just never had an issue that coalesced the divisions so clearly before. Before long it's going to be as bad as 'Catholic vs Protestant' or 'Shia vs Sunni'. We're going to have such utterly different worldviews that we won't even be able to communicate any more.
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kenneal - lagger
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 17, 2019 3:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

We're communicating here, Tess. It might get pretty heated on some things but we can discuss other things, although is that only because we agree on those things? Interesting!!
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woodburner



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PostPosted: Wed Apr 17, 2019 9:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Unless these idealogues stop this fairly soon, like tomorrow, I fear there will be ugly scenes on the streets. There are plenty of people in London who are just getting by while the system runs. If the system stops, life will become harder, and with the forecast of temperatures of 25ºC in the area around London, it could mean temperatures higher than that, which is enough to get the violent groups to take advantage of the situation
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kenneal - lagger
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 18, 2019 2:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

But Anthropomorphic Global Warming could result in temperatures of 25 deg looking quite cool in the future, Woodburner.

You can see the idiot level of argument against AGW in the US government system in this piece.
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emordnilap



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PostPosted: Thu Apr 18, 2019 3:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kenneal - lagger wrote:
But Anthropomorphic Global Warming could result in temperatures of 25 deg looking quite cool in the future, Woodburner.

You can see the idiot level of argument against AGW in the US government system in this piece.


I wish I hadn't looked at that piece. Laughing
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Little John



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PostPosted: Thu Apr 18, 2019 3:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kenneal - lagger wrote:
LJ, different people are animated by different things. There's no harm in that. The fact that climate change animates the Extinction Rebellion people doesn't mean that they are unconcerned by the things you quoted above; in fact I know from talking to them that they would be concerned by some of the things you pointed out but it is climate change and the loss of a habitable world which ignites them.

You could use the same argument that you do against demonstrators for those other causes. Why aren't they campaigning against the loss of our habitat? Who is to say who is doing the right thing?.
The point is, I would wager, for many of them their "protests" more about about self identifying their class position than they are about the thing they are ostensibly protesting. And this is then used by different sections of the ruling class in order to employ them them as useful idiots in an entirely different conflict.
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Little John



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PostPosted: Thu Apr 18, 2019 3:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm no fan of Boulton but he did good today with this proto-fascisic young twerp.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=152&v=dDEnxNQTZrg
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RevdTess



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PostPosted: Thu Apr 18, 2019 3:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Little John wrote:
The point is, I would wager, for many of them their "protests" more about about self identifying their class position than they are about the thing they are ostensibly protesting. And this is then used by different sections of the ruling class in order to employ them them as useful idiots in an entirely different conflict.


I agree with this. I think it's true of most political activity these days. Firstly you're part of a particular tribe. That means you listen to particular commentators and agree with particular sets of evidence, and particular ways of interpreting that evidence, and so you protest against certain things that don't fit with your tribal worldview, and everyone else looks like idiots even though they're doing exactly the same as you are just from a different starting point.

So there are people protesting for whom it's all about 'virtue signalling': I'm this sort of person therefore I protest about this sort of thing, whether that sort of thing is climate change or 'political correctness gone mad' etc.

We'd probably even differ on who we consider the 'ruling class'. Basically that's anyone who has the power to block what we know to be the right thing to do, the thing that is so obvious that every right-minded person must surely believe it unless they're a fascist or deluded.

I've been getting used to this divide for a few years now. It's highly prevalent in religious circles of course. Those who think being gay is an affront against God also see 'snowflake liberals' as an anti-intellectual elite who are taking over the church and rebelling against Holy Scripture. And the liberals see the conservative evangelicals as cold-hearted and cruel elitists who want to exclude the oppressed people that Jesus would have loved. Being the church we try very hard to be polite to each other in public, but privately all kinds of mean things are said about the 'other side' who are clearly missing the whole point of God's love.

Anyway, I ramble. It's Maundy Thursday and we've got the huge Christian festivals of Good Friday and Easter Sunday soon to come, and these conflicts are often on my mind. I mean, the elites killed Jesus too, they even joined forces to do it, but within 300 years the church had become the Roman elite. No one is immune.
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kenneal - lagger
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 18, 2019 3:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

emordnilap wrote:
kenneal - lagger wrote:
But Anthropomorphic Global Warming could result in temperatures of 25 deg looking quite cool in the future, Woodburner.

You can see the idiot level of argument against AGW in the US government system in this piece.


I wish I hadn't looked at that piece. Laughing


A Republican engineer telling a Democrat political scientist, a pseudo scientist according to the engineer, that he was talking about pseudo science when talking about Climate science amused me. All the highly qualified Climate Scientists with their ordinary and higher degrees and all their research is as nothing to this engineer. I'm glad that the Republican engineer is a politician and not a practising engineer because if that is his level of thought we are a lot safer having him as a politician. Thinking about it he probably couldn't cut it as an engineer so became a politician instead.
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woodburner



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PostPosted: Thu Apr 18, 2019 4:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kenneal - lagger wrote:
But Anthropomorphic Global Warming could result in temperatures of 25 deg looking quite cool in the future, Woodburner.

You can see the idiot level of argument against AGW in the US government system in this piece.


You can also see the idiot level argument in favour of AGW too (Al Gore et al), but most choose to believe it regardless.
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kenneal - lagger
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 18, 2019 5:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

woodburner wrote:
kenneal - lagger wrote:
But Anthropomorphic Global Warming could result in temperatures of 25 deg looking quite cool in the future, Woodburner.

You can see the idiot level of argument against AGW in the US government system in this piece.


You can also see the idiot level argument in favour of AGW too (Al Gore et al), but most choose to believe it regardless.


Al Gore is quoting extensive scientific evidence from qualified climate scientists actively involved in current research in the field which has been published and pier revued.

Who do you listen too, woodburner, and what are their qualifications, research and background? We're still waiting for you to find even one climate scientist from the mythical 3% who don't believe in AGW and give us some quotes from them.
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clv101
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 18, 2019 6:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kenneal - lagger wrote:
Who do you listen too, woodburner, and what are their qualifications, research and background?


This is a good question, for Woodburner, and anyone who rejects expert opinion, whether it be on health, climate, engineering etc. Who are the alternative sources of information and why are they more likely to be accurate?
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woodburner



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PostPosted: Thu Apr 18, 2019 6:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kenneal - lagger wrote:
woodburner wrote:
kenneal - lagger wrote:
But Anthropomorphic Global Warming could result in temperatures of 25 deg looking quite cool in the future, Woodburner.

You can see the idiot level of argument against AGW in the US government system in this piece.


You can also see the idiot level argument in favour of AGW too (Al Gore et al), but most choose to believe it regardless.


Al Gore is quoting extensive scientific evidence from qualified climate scientists actively involved in current research in the field which has been published and pier revued.

Who do you listen too, woodburner, and what are their qualifications, research and background? We're still waiting for you to find even one climate scientist from the mythical 3% who don't believe in AGW and give us some quotes from them.


Yes, Al Gore is quoting information from people whose views suit his agenda, whatever that might be. Whether it is scientific is questionable, because as you repeatedly demonstrate, anyone who doubts the mainstream mantras is abused and ridiculed. When you stop doing that you may have more credability, but until you do, you may be seen as a supporter of a religeous sect. Meanwhile look up the size of the several mansions owned and used by Al Gore, and then consider it makes him look just a little bit hypocritical.

As for mentioning names of anyone who does not share the mainstream dogma, there is no point, as once again you have successively demonstrated that you consider those views other than the ones you believe in, must be from ignorant capitalist thugs who are funded by the fossil fuel industry.
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adam2
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 18, 2019 10:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

woodburner wrote:
Unless these idealogues stop this fairly soon, like tomorrow, I fear there will be ugly scenes on the streets. There are plenty of people in London who are just getting by while the system runs. If the system stops, life will become harder, and with the forecast of temperatures of 25ºC in the area around London, it could mean temperatures higher than that, which is enough to get the violent groups to take advantage of the situation


The forecast warm weather will IMHO increase the scale of these protests.
True diehards will protest no matter what the conditions, but fine weather and a holiday weekend are likely in my view to swell the numbers by adding "fine weather followers" to the true diehards.

TPTB usually hope for cold and rain under these circumstances. Warm, yet not extremely hot weather is just what the protesters want, and the last thing wanted by the authorities.
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