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Extinction Rebellion riders
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BritDownUnder



Joined: 21 Sep 2011
Posts: 529
Location: Hunter Valley, NSW, Australia

PostPosted: Sat Apr 20, 2019 11:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think the protesters have a point about the seriousness of climate change. Unfortunately a celebrity flying in did not help the cause if that was their only purpose for the flight. Apparently she said that there was no alternative to flying. I wonder if she flew business class. The Daily Express mentioned one protester living in a 700,000 pound house and teaching yoga. I don't think the hypocrisy should undermine the seriousness of the message. I do get the message that a lot of the protesters are saying do as I say and not what I do.

I would recommend an airline be set up using synthetic petroleum (or a suitable bio-fuel alternative) derived from sustainable biological and renewable resources. This airline shall then be able to transport people around the world including Oscar winning actresses so that they may attend climate protests.

Recently in Australia there was a pro-vegan protests that also shut down some busy traffic intersections in Melbourne.

I am puzzled why the world has been cooling for the last 3 million years. The best reason I can find is that the water gap between the North and South American continents was closed thus shutting down oceanic circulating currents.
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adam2
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Joined: 02 Jul 2007
Posts: 7119
Location: North Somerset

PostPosted: Sat Apr 20, 2019 12:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whilst I agree with the need to reduce carbon emissions, I feel that completely stopping such emissions in a few years is unrealistic.

Consider just a few of the measures needed.

Shut down air transport, apart from the trivial portion that is electric. Not just passenger transport but food imports.

Shut down sea transport apart from the trivial proportion that is sail powered or electric. No more bulk food imports.

Prohibit most domestic heating.

Ration electricity to that proportion that can be produced renewably. If electric public transport, hospitals, and vital industries are to receive priority, then that means largely eliminating domestic electricity consumption.

Re direct surplus labour to the land as farming will be largely manual. Whilst horses or biofueled tractors could replace some human effort, the land required to produce horse fodder or biofuel would reduce production of human food.

And even these draconian measures wont eliminate carbon emissions, some FF will still be burnt to produce the materials needed to make all the wind turbines, PV modules, electric trains and buses, sailing ships and so on.
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RevdTess



Joined: 24 Nov 2005
Posts: 2877
Location: Newquay

PostPosted: Sat Apr 20, 2019 12:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Vortex2 wrote:

Individual actions/costs are fine if they have the effect of influencing many others in some way, so that the NET effect is positive.


Well, quite. A celebrity flying in to address the protesters and media has an ambiguously positive net effect at best. Or it may just turn people off who see the whole thing as hypocrisy.

Of course the protesters cannot really escape the condemnation. If they're hippy types they're dismissed as the usual suspects who don't have bar of soap between them. If they're 'nice middle class professionals' they're dismissed as hypocrites who should live in caves if they want to be taken seriously.

I've no doubt though that those who call the protesters scum and demand the police remove them vigorously, probably also support the gilets jaunes in Paris with their roadblocks and rather more aggressive style. What tribe you belong to determines what you see as heroic democratic resistance or selfish fascist hypocrisy.
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emordnilap



Joined: 05 Sep 2007
Posts: 14525
Location: Houǝsʇlʎ' ᴉʇ,s ɹǝɐllʎ uoʇ ʍoɹʇɥ ʇɥǝ ǝɟɟoɹʇ' pou,ʇ ǝʌǝu qoʇɥǝɹ˙

PostPosted: Sat Apr 20, 2019 1:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TEQs.

‘nuff said.
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Lord Beria3



Joined: 25 Feb 2009
Posts: 4579
Location: Moscow Russia

PostPosted: Sat Apr 20, 2019 3:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Its hypocrisy Tess. Simple as.

She could have addressed the crowds using technology.

Climate is a massively serious issue but environmental activists have to start walking the walk and leading by example if they want any credibility with society.

At the moment they don't.
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clv101
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Joined: 24 Nov 2005
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 20, 2019 8:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lord Beria3 wrote:
Its hypocrisy Tess. Simple as.

What's wrong with hypocrisy? It's really important to understand that a good point or argument does not not cease to be a good point, no matter who delivers it. Good arguments can stand up for themselves. We're all hypocrites, in fact I'd more much more worried about someone who's values were not beyond their day to day reality.
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RevdTess



Joined: 24 Nov 2005
Posts: 2877
Location: Newquay

PostPosted: Sat Apr 20, 2019 9:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

clv101 wrote:

What's wrong with hypocrisy? It's really important to understand that a good point or argument does not not cease to be a good point, no matter who delivers it. Good arguments can stand up for themselves. We're all hypocrites, in fact I'd more much more worried about someone who's values were not beyond their day to day reality.


I tell you what though, when I preach on Sunday, I could preach the most profound truths that anyone ever heard, but if my character doesn't back that up, ain't nobody gonna listen to a word I say.

Or to put it in the famous words of St Paul, "If I speak in the tongues of mortals and of angels, but do not have love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing" (1 Corinthians 13)

So yeah. Good arguments are still good arguments. But they're worthless if no one will listen to you because your character doesn't back up what you're saying.
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vtsnowedin



Joined: 07 Jan 2011
Posts: 5201
Location: New England ,Chelsea Vermont

PostPosted: Sat Apr 20, 2019 11:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

hy·poc·ri·sy
/həˈpäkrəsē/
noun
noun: hypocrisy; plural noun: hypocrisies

the practice of claiming to have moral standards or beliefs to which one's own behavior does not conform; pretense.
"his target was the hypocrisy of suburban life"
synonyms: sanctimoniousness, sanctimony, pietism, piousness, affected piety, affected superiority, false virtue, cant, humbug, pretense, posturing, speciousness, empty talk;

No. Once ones hypocrisy is exposed right thinking people dismiss anything you say and most of what you do.
The point that you don't believe it enough to practice it totally destroys your argument.
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adam2
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Joined: 02 Jul 2007
Posts: 7119
Location: North Somerset

PostPosted: Sun Apr 21, 2019 3:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

"Protests to be paused"

Have they run out of protesters, or are they actually regrouping for some new form of protest.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-48003955
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UndercoverElephant



Joined: 10 Mar 2008
Posts: 9531
Location: south east England

PostPosted: Sun Apr 21, 2019 3:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

vtsnowedin wrote:
hy·poc·ri·sy
/həˈpäkrəsē/
noun
noun: hypocrisy; plural noun: hypocrisies

the practice of claiming to have moral standards or beliefs to which one's own behavior does not conform; pretense.
"his target was the hypocrisy of suburban life"
synonyms: sanctimoniousness, sanctimony, pietism, piousness, affected piety, affected superiority, false virtue, cant, humbug, pretense, posturing, speciousness, empty talk;

No. Once ones hypocrisy is exposed right thinking people dismiss anything you say and most of what you do.
The point that you don't believe it enough to practice it totally destroys your argument.


Actually, this is a widely believed to be so, but is also a well known fallacy. It is used by people who've never been trained to spot fallacies, and they, like you, are utterly convinced of its validity. But it is not valid. It is called, "Tu quoque"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tu_quoque

Quote:

Tu quoque (/tjuːˈkwoʊkwi, tuːˈkwoʊkweɪ/;[1] Latin for "you also"), or the appeal to hypocrisy, is a fallacy that intends to discredit the opponent's argument by asserting the opponent's failure to act consistently in accordance with its conclusion(s).

The fallacy

Tu quoque "argument" follows the pattern:[2]

Person A makes claim X.
Person B asserts that A's actions or past claims are inconsistent with the truth of claim X.
Therefore, X is false.

An example would be

Peter: "Bill is guilty of defrauding the government out of tax dollars."
Bill: "How can you say that when you yourself have 20 outstanding parking tickets?"

It is a fallacy because the moral character or actions of the opponent are generally irrelevant to the logic of the argument.[3] It is often used as a red herring tactic and is a special case of the ad hominem fallacy, which is a category of fallacies in which a claim or argument is rejected on the basis of facts about the person presenting or supporting the claim or argument.[4]
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vtsnowedin



Joined: 07 Jan 2011
Posts: 5201
Location: New England ,Chelsea Vermont

PostPosted: Sun Apr 21, 2019 5:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You miss the point. It being that the hypocrites opinion on a matter can be discredited or dismissed because they have been shown to be untrustworthy. It does not speak to the truth or falseness of the argument the hypocrite is making, only that his opinion on the subject has no value.
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Vortex2



Joined: 13 Jan 2019
Posts: 171

PostPosted: Sun Apr 21, 2019 8:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

vtsnowedin wrote:
You miss the point. It being that the hypocrites opinion on a matter can be discredited or dismissed because they have been shown to be untrustworthy. It does not speak to the truth or falseness of the argument the hypocrite is making, only that his opinion on the subject has no value.

No. The opinion of a weak person can be valid.

Would you disbelieve a drug addict who tells you to avoid drugs?
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RevdTess



Joined: 24 Nov 2005
Posts: 2877
Location: Newquay

PostPosted: Sun Apr 21, 2019 9:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Vortex2 wrote:

No. The opinion of a weak person can be valid.


It's not either/or. A person's argument in the public sphere has an impact relative to both the objective validity of their argument *and* their *perceived* hypocrisy (and their celebrity).

The point is, hypocrisy will weaken your argument to some degree. We just can't say how much. It depends on the listener, how they feel about hypocrisy in public debate.
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vtsnowedin



Joined: 07 Jan 2011
Posts: 5201
Location: New England ,Chelsea Vermont

PostPosted: Sun Apr 21, 2019 10:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Vortex2 wrote:
vtsnowedin wrote:
You miss the point. It being that the hypocrites opinion on a matter can be discredited or dismissed because they have been shown to be untrustworthy. It does not speak to the truth or falseness of the argument the hypocrite is making, only that his opinion on the subject has no value.

No. The opinion of a weak person can be valid.

Would you disbelieve a drug addict who tells you to avoid drugs?

If the drug addict gives good advise it is purely by chance. He is more likely to say this stuff is awesome you gotta try some.
You don't judge a persons arguments by their celebrity but rather by their reputation for clear logical thought and expertise in the field being discussed.
Hypocrisy discovered reveals a mind where greed has overruled logic and while they may preach a good sermon on Sunday will probably not do another Christian thing all week. They are to be shunned, avoided and most of all ignored.
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Vortex2



Joined: 13 Jan 2019
Posts: 171

PostPosted: Sun Apr 21, 2019 10:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, to me the message is important .. the messenger is exactly that .. the person who supplies the message ... could be a courier, an email, whatever.

Books are like that : they fill you with excitement, enthusiasm etc .. but in most cases I have no idea about the author.

For example, I know more about the theory of evolution than I do about Darwin.

He could have been a pervert, a plagiarist, an alien .. and so what?
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