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Direct use of wind or water power.

 
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kenneal - lagger
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Joined: 20 Sep 2006
Posts: 12150
Location: Newbury, Berkshire

PostPosted: Wed Jun 17, 2020 2:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The 99.99% of people who would argue against it do so not because they can't see that they are enslaved but because they don't want to see that they are enslaved.

We have no debts and own our small holding outright so we can grow our own food and provide most of our energy in an emergency. We have a little way to go to provide all our energy and would have to change the way we work further to be 100% self sufficient; no freezers or fewer for example. We are still in some ways reliant on the system, and thus enslaved, as we have to work to earn money to pay our taxes. But when the system breaks down and taxation fails to be collected we will be able to be self sufficient and still live our lives even if we do have to fight off the remnants still reliant on the old life.

I have to find a way of storing enough petrol, preferably safely underground, to keep the chain saw going for a while until I can devise a non fossil fuelled way of powering a saw mill. Also we need to get at least one horse, probably a pair, full male and female, to provide the required "horse power" around the farm in perpetuity. The alternative would be to use bullock power which we already have, although untrained, in perpetuity.

We still have to increase the number of solar panels and a 6kW wind turbine would help a lot. A large bag of oil seed rape seed would also be useful to provide some biodiesel for the occasional use of the genny. A number of additional houses on site would be good to house the additional families that I would envision taking on for added security but we have plenty of earth and trees around to build in cob or timber frame or a combination.

Much of the above is required in order to keep us in the 19th and 20th centuries. If we were willing to regress a little further we wouldn't need most of the above.

I might be still partially enslaved but at least my mind isn't, as you can see from the above.
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Last edited by kenneal - lagger on Wed Jun 17, 2020 3:52 pm; edited 1 time in total
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emordnilap



Joined: 05 Sep 2007
Posts: 14598
Location: Houǝsʇlʎ' ᴉʇ,s ɹǝɐllʎ uoʇ ʍoɹʇɥ ʇɥǝ ǝɟɟoɹʇ' pou,ʇ ǝʌǝu qoʇɥǝɹ˙

PostPosted: Wed Jun 17, 2020 3:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kenneal - lagger wrote:
The 99.99% of people who would argue against it do so not because they can't see that they are enslaved but because they don't want to see that they are enslaved.

We have no debts and own our small holding outright so we can grow our own food and provide most of our energy in an emergency. We have a little way to go to provide all our energy and would have to change the way we work further to be 100% self sufficient; no freezers or fewer for example. We are still in some ways reliant on the system, and thus enslaved, as we have to work to earn money to pay our taxes. But when the system breaks down and taxation fails to be collected we will be able to be self sufficient and still live our lives even if we do have to fight off the remnants still reliant on the old life.

I have to find a way of storing enough petrol, preferably safely underground, to keep the chain saw going for a while until I can devise a non fossil fuelled way of powering a saw mill. Also we need to get at least one horse, probably a pair, full male and female, to provide the required "horse power" around the farm in perpetuity. The alternative would be to use bullock power which we already have, although untrained, in perpetuity.

We still have to increase the number of solar panels and a 6kW wind turbine would help a lot. A large bag of oil seed rape seed would also be useful to provide some biodiesel for the occasional use of the genny. A number of additional houses on site would be good to house the additional families that I would envision taking on for added security but we have plenty of earth and trees around to build in cob or timber frame or a combination.

Much of the above is required in order to keep us in the 19th and 20th centuries. If we were willing to regress a little further we wouldn't need most of the above.

I might be still partially enslaved but at least my mind isn't, as you can see from the above.


Inspiring. Whatever about the mindset of most people, money stands in the way of most aims, even to regress to earlier technology. Still, where there's a will…
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I experience pleasure and pains, and pursue goals in service of them, so I cannot reasonably deny the right of other sentient agents to do the same - Steven Pinker
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Catweazle



Joined: 17 Feb 2008
Posts: 2528
Location: Little England, over the hills

PostPosted: Wed Jun 17, 2020 6:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kenneal - lagger wrote:
until I can devise a non fossil fuelled way of powering a saw mill.


Wind power is great, but getting the energy from the ideally sited turbine to the tools, via batteries and / or inverters adds complications that might fail in future.

I've been playing with permanent magnet 3-phase synchronous motors recently. They work as motors or generators, and one can be connected directly to another via 3 core cable. This is potentially useful for things like well pumps, which simply run when the wind blows.

You could run these from a water wheel, steam engine, tractor PTO etc., with easy connection to pumps. lathes, saws or whatever you can fit a motor on, but you'll have little control of the speed.
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vtsnowedin



Joined: 07 Jan 2011
Posts: 6369
Location: New England ,Chelsea Vermont

PostPosted: Wed Jun 17, 2020 7:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Catweazle wrote:
kenneal - lagger wrote:
until I can devise a non fossil fuelled way of powering a saw mill.


Wind power is great, but getting the energy from the ideally sited turbine to the tools, via batteries and / or inverters adds complications that might fail in future.

I've been playing with permanent magnet 3-phase synchronous motors recently. They work as motors or generators, and one can be connected directly to another via 3 core cable. This is potentially useful for things like well pumps, which simply run when the wind blows.

You could run these from a water wheel, steam engine, tractor PTO etc., with easy connection to pumps. lathes, saws or whatever you can fit a motor on, but you'll have little control of the speed.

The old water wheel powered saw mills had little problem with speed. As long as a full flume of water was feeding the wheel it turned at a constant rate determined by its diameter and the width/volume of the buckets. That shaft power could then be taken off the shaft by belts over various sized pulleys to get any tool speed required. A shop would have one spinning shaft down a line of tool benches and each tool could be turned on by putting tension on it's drive belt. The old guys were a pretty clever lot but had to put up with seasonal water flows.
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Catweazle



Joined: 17 Feb 2008
Posts: 2528
Location: Little England, over the hills

PostPosted: Wed Jun 17, 2020 7:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

vtsnowedin wrote:

The old water wheel powered saw mills had little problem with speed. As long as a full flume of water was feeding the wheel it turned at a constant rate determined by its diameter and the width/volume of the buckets. That shaft power could then be taken off the shaft by belts over various sized pulleys to get any tool speed required. A shop would have one spinning shaft down a line of tool benches and each tool could be turned on by putting tension on it's drive belt. The old guys were a pretty clever lot but had to put up with seasonal water flows.


My friend has a water wheel on the end of his workshop, connected to a large iron shaft that runs right through the workshop just below the ceiling. It used to power looms.

Wind power is a bit different, the optimum position for the turbine is high on a hill, up a tower. Electrical cable is easily run down the hill to the workshop. Proper battery and inverter setup is great, but expensive, and a point of failure. If the load can be driven ad-hoc, maybe a water pump or a grain mill or a heater in a big thermal store, then a simple generator to motor or heating element setup might be OK.
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adam2
Site Admin


Joined: 02 Jul 2007
Posts: 8002
Location: North Somerset

PostPosted: Wed Jun 17, 2020 8:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It is just about possible to use direct electric drive from a wind turbine to a standard induction motor.
For this to work, the W/T must produce 3 phase. The frequency will vary with the wind but must be in the 50 cycles region.
The electric motor must be at least roughly the right voltage, matching W/T output.

I know someone who does this.
The W/T Produces 3 phase at a voltage varying from about 50 volts up to about 200 volts.
They use a standard American induction motor intended for 3 phase, 208 volts at 60 cycles. 5HP IIRC.

To use, the wind turbine is disconnected from the rectifier and voltage regulator and connected instead to the motor on the sawbench.
The sawbench is placed with sight of the W/T. If the speed reduces unduly the work rate must be reduced.
If the voltage exceeds about 220 volts, a dump load is connected automatically.
The motor gets rather irregular treatment as regards both voltage and frequency and should be very generously rated.
Very excessive frequency may "grenade" the motor, caused by disintegration of the rotor under centrifugal force.

Take great care, dangerous voltages and dangerous moving parts are involved.
Think very carefully indeed before connecting else to this crude AC supply.
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vtsnowedin



Joined: 07 Jan 2011
Posts: 6369
Location: New England ,Chelsea Vermont

PostPosted: Wed Jun 17, 2020 8:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Catweazle wrote:
vtsnowedin wrote:

The old water wheel powered saw mills had little problem with speed. As long as a full flume of water was feeding the wheel it turned at a constant rate determined by its diameter and the width/volume of the buckets. That shaft power could then be taken off the shaft by belts over various sized pulleys to get any tool speed required. A shop would have one spinning shaft down a line of tool benches and each tool could be turned on by putting tension on it's drive belt. The old guys were a pretty clever lot but had to put up with seasonal water flows.


My friend has a water wheel on the end of his workshop, connected to a large iron shaft that runs right through the workshop just below the ceiling. It used to power looms.

Wind power is a bit different, the optimum position for the turbine is high on a hill, up a tower. Electrical cable is easily run down the hill to the workshop. Proper battery and inverter setup is great, but expensive, and a point of failure. If the load can be driven ad-hoc, maybe a water pump or a grain mill or a heater in a big thermal store, then a simple generator to motor or heating element setup might be OK.
Except for the transportation factor why go from mechanical energy to electricity then back to mechanical? Just bring the work to the bottom of the windmill and do it there. There are enough losses close to the source so you don't want to add any more converting back and forth. Now a modern wind turbine attached to a battery bank can store several days and nights of wind for when you need it but the workshop should still be close by. That storage factor equal to a mill pond filling up from the stream flow is the only reason to not use the energy when it is actually available but of course you do not want to get up in the middle of the night because the wind is blowing.
Back in the day they had quite a bit of getting up in the night to use the water in the pond before the competitor came in in the morning. Smile
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