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Timetable set to phase out high-energy light bulbs
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Adam1



Joined: 01 Sep 2006
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 28, 2007 2:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for that adam2. I thought that there was a problem with dimmers but didn't know why exactly. Now I do. Presumably dimmed incandescent bulbs are inefficient for the same reason that heating elements are inefficient if they are run on lower voltages than they are designed for.
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mikepepler
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 29, 2007 9:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think most CFLs don't work with dimmers, as they have a switched mode power supply inside them, so if the voltage is dropped they just draw more current.

I'm not sure about LEDs, whether they are more efficient when dimmed. In practice you tend to flash the LED on/off very fast (at least hundreds of times per second) to approximate dimming - we used this trick a lot in my old job, and I've seen it on cars, where the same light works for driving light and brake, so needs two different brightnesses.
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Vortex



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PostPosted: Sat Sep 29, 2007 9:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
In practice you tend to flash the LED on/off very fast (at least hundreds of times per second) to approximate dimming

I used that trick in a mobile phone I was working on (as a software developer).

However we were advised to use a special LED controller chip for reliability ... but I still think that my software driven approach would have been fine!
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mikepepler
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 29, 2007 1:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Vortex wrote:
Quote:
In practice you tend to flash the LED on/off very fast (at least hundreds of times per second) to approximate dimming

I used that trick in a mobile phone I was working on (as a software developer).

However we were advised to use a special LED controller chip for reliability ... but I still think that my software driven approach would have been fine!

It would be perfectly fine. We were doing it using FPGAs, so it was logic rather than software doing the work, but even the slowest of microcontrollers could cope with the task easily, as well as doing other jobs.
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Vortex



Joined: 16 May 2006
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 29, 2007 4:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Agreed.

However with mobile phones a design failure due to overoptimism could cause a product recall.

When making around 1 million phones a month, a product recall would simply destroy the company.

(You make maybe ?10 per phone ... the admin and postage costs alone per recalled & resupplied product would GREATLY exceed that. Multiply by say 3 million and you get the idea.)
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snowdrift



Joined: 02 Oct 2007
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2007 11:52 pm    Post subject: Idiocy Reply with quote

An unforseen advantage of the ban is that I'll be able to live in a world where I can smuggle illicit incandescent lightbulbs into the country and sell them under the counter to people who know the special handshake. It would be funny if it weren't so sad.

I don't mind having to use less energy, but I mind greatly being told exactly how I must use less. I like incandescent light. It's much nicer than flourescent light. I'll happily turn my central heating down 3 degrees, which will more than make up for it. Actually, I don't have central heating, because all my heating comes from solid fuel. I can light my house with candles if I wish, and I can light my house with 500W halogen floodlamps, but apparently in order to save the earth I'm not allowed to light my house with 60W incandescent bulbs. Cretins.
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kenneal - lagger
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2007 2:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

While I agree with Christopher Booker's anti EU stance, I get very annoyed with his dinosaur attitude to Climate Change and anything "green". Some would say his anti EU stance is part of the dinosaur mode as well, but then, possibly, I'm a dinosaur in that way as well.

He's never mentioned Peak Oil in all his ramblings and I wonder if he has heard of it. You would have thought that someone as well connected as he is would have heard about it by now, but perhaps not. I've got a plug in for the subject in my reply below. We'll have to see if it gets in.

Quote:
We have used CFLs almost entirely for the last twenty five years without any problems whatsoever and they have saved us a fortune. In that time the range has improved greatly. Now there is a bulb for almost all fittings.
Christopher Booker is always banging on about the dubiousness of climate change and how we are wasting our time saving energy. Hasn't he heard about the problems we will shortly face over the peaking of the world's oil supply? With the fuel shortage that Peak Oil will cause we won't have enough electricity to light any light bulbs if we do not prepare alternative fuel sources soon.
Just as oil production in the US rose to a peak in 1970 and then started falling, with the US going from exporting oil all over the world to now importing a large percentage of it's oil demand, so will the world's oil supply. It appears that conventional oil supply peaked in 2006 and it is unlikely that other types of oil can compensate for this loss.

Any fuel saving should be applauded.


I'm glad we don't have a 1000 character limit here. It's so, er.... limiting!! I had to knock out most of my punctuation!! What would my English teacher say?
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RenewableCandy



Joined: 12 Sep 2007
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2007 10:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I'm glad we don't have a 1000 character limit here. It's so, er.... limiting!! I had to knock out most of my punctuation!! What would my English teacher say?


Umm...that "it's" is short for "it is" and not for "belonging to it"...sorry I'll get my coat now... Smile

Nice one sticking yer oar in, though!
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adam2
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2007 11:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I do not support a blanket ban on incandescent lamps, since I believe in freedom of choice. I do however believe that the tax system should be used to encourage responsible choices, therefore I would support a substantial tax on low efficiency lamps, of perhaps 1 a lamp.
This would render CFLs cheaper than incandescent lamps and lead to their near universal use.
Traditional lamps would still be available, at a premium price, for those determined to use them and for those limited applications where CFLs are not suitable.

Unfortunatly the ban appears to have been designed by politicians and not by an engineer. No one even to seems to know what lamp types will be banned!
torch bulbs? vehicle bulbs? infra-red heat lamps? pilot lamps? bakers oven lamps? 12 volt halogen lamps? projector lamps? light house lamps?locating lights fitted to life jackets? christmas tree lights?
And what about GLS lamps in non standard voltages such as 6 volts, 12 volts, 24 volts, 32 volts, 42 volts, 50 volts. The market for these odd voltages is very limited, but they are essiential for some purposes.
(I dont think that our elected leaders even know that the above are all types of incandescent lamp!)


Last edited by adam2 on Sun Sep 05, 2010 1:42 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Adam1



Joined: 01 Sep 2006
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2007 1:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

adam2 wrote:
I do not support a blanket ban on incandescent lamps, since I believe in freedom of choice. I do however believe that the tax system should be used to encourage responsible choices, therefore I would support a substantial tax on low efficiency lamps, of perhaps ?1 a lamp.
This would render CFLs cheaper than incandescent lamps and lead to theire near universal use.
Traditional lamps would still be available, at a premium price, for those determined to use them and for those limited applications where CFLs are not suitable.

Unfortunatly the ban appears to have been designed by politicians and not by an engineer. No one even to seems to know what lamp types will be banned!
torch bulbs? vehicle bulbs? infra-red heat lamps? pilot lamps? bakers oven lamps? 12 volt halogen lamps? projector lamps? light house lamps?locating lights fitted to life jackets? christmas tree lights?
And what about GLS lamps in non standard voltages such as 6 volts, 12 volts, 24 volts, 32 volts, 42 volts, 50 volts. The market for these odd voltages is very limited, but they are essiential for some purposes.
(I dont think that our elected leaders even know that the above are all types of incandescent lamp!)


I think we will have to see the detail of the ban first. Although I think a ban will send a good message and is better than the status quo, I agree with snow hope's point that he doesn't want to be told how to save energy. I suspect that - from the government's point of view - the driver behind the policy is the electricity generation shortfall that we seem to be heading towards, rather than climate change.

To me, the light bulb ban illustrates nicely why piecemeal micro-management of people's energy use is not the way forward. If we introduced TEQs, the system would provide everyone with an incentive to buy CFLs and do everything else they can to reduce their energy use. Combined with other government measures to manage the energy descent, TEQs would, rather than alienating people, facilitate "common purpose". (BTW - if any of you are down near Lewes in Sussex next week, there's going to be a talk on TEQs organised by Transition Town Lewes at 8pm on Wednesday 10th.

Snow hope - there are lots of CFLs that produce a softer, less harsh light. My OH and I aren't keen on overly white light but have managed to fit CFLs widely at home that we can live happily with.
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kenneal - lagger
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2007 5:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

RenewableCandy wrote:
Quote:
I'm glad we don't have a 1000 character limit here. It's so, er.... limiting!! I had to knock out most of my punctuation!! What would my English teacher say?


Umm...that "it's" is short for "it is" and not for "belonging to it"...sorry I'll get my coat now... Smile


I've just finished 1000 lines and and hours detention.
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adam2
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2007 5:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Adam1 wrote:


Snow hope - there are lots of CFLs that produce a softer, less harsh light. My OH and I aren't keen on overly white light but have managed to fit CFLs widely at home that we can live happily with.


Indeed, the choice grows almost daily. the most common shades of "white" are
827, extra warm white, somwhat similar to incandescent lamps, though not an exact match
830, warm white, somewhat similar to halogen, though again not an exact match.
840, cool white, halfway between warm white and daylight, widely used in offices.
860/865 daylight, my favourite, though I am in a minority and most would prefer 827 at least in the home.

In addition a growing range of coloured CFLs are available, some are white lamps with a coloured coating and others use coloured phosphors, which is of course more efficient.

Coloured phosphor lamps are made in blue, green, and a so-called red which is actually magenta.

Colour coated lamps are available in red, orange, yellow, blue, and green. The coloured coating reduces the efficiency badly, but it is still a vast improvement over coloured incandescent lamps.

It is easy to colour CFLs yourself and I have done this many times. Simply dip the glass part of the lamp in diluted gloss paint of the desired colour taking care not to get any paint in the ballast assembly. Then light the lamp in order to bake the paint onto the glass THIS MUST BE DONE OUTSIDE since there is a very small chance that any failure of the lamp could ignite the paint.
Once the paint is dry, the flammable white spirit or similar has evaporated and I do not believe that there is any risk in using the lamps.
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RenewableCandy



Joined: 12 Sep 2007
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 05, 2007 12:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yup here they are:

http://www.bltdirect.com/products.php?cat=52&nm=Coloured+Energy+Saving+Spiral+Light+Bulbs
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emordnilap



Joined: 05 Sep 2007
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Location: Houǝsʇlʎ' ᴉʇ,s ɹǝɐllʎ uoʇ ʍoɹʇɥ ʇɥǝ ǝɟɟoɹʇ' pou,ʇ ǝʌǝu qoʇɥǝɹ˙

PostPosted: Fri Oct 05, 2007 3:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

RenewableCandy wrote:
Yup here they are:

http://www.bltdirect.com/products.php?cat=52&nm=Coloured+Energy+Saving+Spiral+Light+Bulbs

Quote:
These light bulbs are available in BC (baynout cap) and ES (eddison screw) caps.

Nnnnnn...
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Aurora



Joined: 24 Jan 2007
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 06, 2007 7:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/7029269.stm

Quote:
BBC News - 05/10/07

US industrial giant General Electric is closing a number of light bulb manufacturing plants in North America, with the loss of about 1,400 jobs.

(continued)
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