PowerSwitch Main Page
PowerSwitch
The UK's Peak Oil Discussion Forum & Community
 
 FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups   RegisterRegister 
 ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 

Timetable set to phase out high-energy light bulbs
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4 ... 9, 10, 11  Next
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    PowerSwitch Forum Index -> Electrical, Theory and Practice
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
adam2
Site Admin


Joined: 02 Jul 2007
Posts: 6552
Location: North Somerset

PostPosted: Tue Oct 09, 2007 3:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dimmable CFLs that can be dimmed via a standard dimmer are now available, they are however very expensive and AFAIK are only available from one chain of shops.
At 18 each I dont think that they are worth it, however I suspect that they will soon be cheaper and more readily available.

(switch dimmable CFLs that can be dimmed via a normal switch, have been around for a year or two. They are useful but only have at most four pre-set light levels. The lamps reffered to above are continously dimmable from 2% up to 100%)

EDITED long after the original post, dimmable CFLs are now more widely available and for a lot less than 18 !


Last edited by adam2 on Sun Sep 05, 2010 1:47 pm; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Adam1



Joined: 01 Sep 2006
Posts: 2707

PostPosted: Mon Oct 22, 2007 1:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I felt I had to share my frustration with you...

...I was in the hardware store Robert Dyas this lunchtime and I bumped into a colleague who was looking for a replacement light bulb. I said hello and pointed to the largish selection of CFLs that were on display. She said I know I should but they cost 7 each. I pointed out that they were less than that, many were 3.99. (Later I pointed to a pack of five bulbs for 4.99). I said she'd save money if she bought the CFLs. Her reply was that she only uses the light for a few hours each evening, implying that it would't therefore make any difference. She then said she needed to do more research, she would do something else green instead and that for 85p (cost of two incandescents), she'd have light in her flat again, so basically she wasn't going to think about it or change her buying decision. I had a similar conversation with another colleague about a year ago, who claimed that he couldn't "afford" CFLs.

Neither of them are (a) uneducated, (b) wholly innumerate (one of them is an IT programmer) or (c) so poor that they can't direct a few quid of discretionary spending. People seem to have no clue at the most basic level about money. We do need to ban or make prohibitively expensive the upfront cost of CFLs and other similar 'gas guzzling' devices. Most people just don't get the concept of spending a little to save a lot. Sad
_________________
"The greatest shortcoming of the human race (still) is our inability to understand the exponential function."
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Shira



Joined: 02 Mar 2007
Posts: 46
Location: Kildare, Ireland

PostPosted: Mon Oct 22, 2007 2:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I hate CFLs, I suffer from migraines and I'm autistic so fluorescents really bother me. The ones we have in our house are full-spectrum daylight bulbs (dear god they're ?15 each), which are much less problematic but still aren't great. We have an incandescent in a lamp in the living room for when I really can't tolerate the fluorescents. Most places have bog-standard fluorescents and I get migraines, I stop being able to think or speak properly, I get extremely tired, and basically can't function under them. A full ban on incandescents as I've seen some people advocating would be absolutely crippling for those of us who are highly sensitive to fluorescent lighting. I'd like it if LED lighting became more widely available, although that's not without its minus points either.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Vortex



Joined: 16 May 2006
Posts: 6097

PostPosted: Mon Oct 22, 2007 2:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't know why people want dimmable CFLs ... even with all ours on it's still like living in a murky cave ... I'm simply PINING for a 1kw tungsten lamp!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
clv101
Site Admin


Joined: 24 Nov 2005
Posts: 7756

PostPosted: Mon Oct 22, 2007 2:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It seems Sainsbury's will be giving away 1 million 11W CFL bulbs this week. Personally I think this is a mistake - they should have gone for more powerful ones. 11W are, in my experience, not comparable to 60W incandescent. I run 25W CFL - which I think are equivalent to 100W even if they claim 125W).

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7056102.stm
_________________
PowerSwitch on Facebook | The Oil Drum | Twitter | Blog
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
RenewableCandy



Joined: 12 Sep 2007
Posts: 12569
Location: York

PostPosted: Mon Oct 22, 2007 2:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Shira wrote:
I hate CFLs, I suffer from migraines and I'm autistic so fluorescents really bother me. The ones we have in our house are full-spectrum daylight bulbs (dear god they're ?15 each), which are much less problematic but still aren't great. We have an incandescent in a lamp in the living room for when I really can't tolerate the fluorescents. Most places have bog-standard fluorescents and I get migraines, I stop being able to think or speak properly, I get extremely tired, and basically can't function under them. A full ban on incandescents as I've seen some people advocating would be absolutely crippling for those of us who are highly sensitive to fluorescent lighting. I'd like it if LED lighting became more widely available, although that's not without its minus points either.


I can't work that out. Fluorescent tubes can be unpleasant (and set off migraines) because of the 100 Hz flashing, but Compact Fluorescents have a different (and far far higher-frequency) 'firing' mechanism and do not give 100 Hz flicker, so should be OK...no?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Shira



Joined: 02 Mar 2007
Posts: 46
Location: Kildare, Ireland

PostPosted: Mon Oct 22, 2007 2:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I can't work that out. Fluorescent tubes can be unpleasant (and set off migraines) because of the 100 Hz flashing, but Compact Fluorescents have a different (and far far higher-frequency) 'firing' mechanism and do not give 100 Hz flicker, so should be OK...no?


Yeah, I thought that too, but apparently not. As I say, a CFL doesn't cause as much of a problem as fluorescent tubes, and is a great improvement on them, but is still unpleasant to deal with after a certain amount of time, which will vary depending on what kind of day I'm having but can be anything from quarter of an hour to three or four hours. Autistics are often bothered by all sorts of things that neurotypicals don't even notice. I find the full-spectrum bulbs to be much better than the normal ones, which give off a horrible yellow light to my eyes and make everything look strangely grainy - like a visual fizz. As I'm synaesthetic, that translates to my sense of sound and touch as well and can become very uncomfortable.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Adam1



Joined: 01 Sep 2006
Posts: 2707

PostPosted: Mon Oct 22, 2007 3:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

clv101 wrote:
It seems Sainsbury's will be giving away 1 million 11W CFL bulbs this week. Personally I think this is a mistake - they should have gone for more powerful ones. 11W are, in my experience, not comparable to 60W incandescent. I run 25W CFL - which I think are equivalent to 100W even if they claim 125W).

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7056102.stm


If the bulb offers five times the light per watt, 11W should be equivalent to 55W; I guess they round up to the nearest equivalent tungsten. I've noticed that some CFLs only offer four times the light per watt. Where that's the case, 11W would only give 44W equivalent.


Shira wrote:
I hate CFLs, ... We have an incandescent in a lamp in the living room for when I really can't tolerate the fluorescents. Most places have bog-standard fluorescents and I get migraines, I stop being able to think or speak properly, I get extremely tired, and basically can't function under them. A full ban on incandescents as I've seen some people advocating would be absolutely crippling for those of us who are highly sensitive to fluorescent lighting. I'd like it if LED lighting became more widely available, although that's not without its minus points either.


I am also quite sensitive to flickering (I always have to fiddle with the default 60Hz refresh rates on some older computer screens to get it up to 85Hz where possible). Despite that, I've never had a problem with flickering of compact fluorescents - as distinct from office strip lights, which can be oppressive. The key thing is to make sure you get the right brightness and whiteness of light.

In policy terms, I think that, once a TEQs framework was in place, there would be strong disincentive for most people to have incandescents. I still think there should also be a tax/subsidy incentive to make it crystal clear to even the most financially illiterate that the norm should always be the low energy choice and that a higher energy one should be 'by exception'. TEQs would force people into an either or choice: yes, you can have your tungsten lamps but you will have to cut back elsewhere or pay more for extra TEQ units to cover your extra energy use.
_________________
"The greatest shortcoming of the human race (still) is our inability to understand the exponential function."
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
emordnilap



Joined: 05 Sep 2007
Posts: 14073
Location: Houǝsʇlʎ' ᴉʇ,s ɹǝɐllʎ uoʇ ʍoɹʇɥ ʇɥǝ ǝɟɟoɹʇ' pou,ʇ ǝʌǝu qoʇɥǝɹ˙

PostPosted: Mon Oct 22, 2007 3:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Adam1 wrote:
In policy terms, I think that, once a TEQs framework was in place
What is the likelihood of TEQs happening before it's too late? What's the most current thinking in government circles on this?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Adam1



Joined: 01 Sep 2006
Posts: 2707

PostPosted: Mon Oct 22, 2007 3:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

emordnilap wrote:
Adam1 wrote:
In policy terms, I think that, once a TEQs framework was in place
What is the likelihood of TEQs happening before it's too late? What's the most current thinking in government circles on this?


At a recent Transition Town Lewes talk on TEQs and on Contraction and Convergence, I learned that the government are making provision in the Climate Change Bill currently going through Parliament to allow for the introduction of a scheme without the need for further primary legislation. This will allow them to introduce a scheme more quickly once the facts on the ground change political reality sufficiently to make TEQs politically acceptable. The question is whether the Whitehall bureaucrats will retain the bottom up/common purpose ideas that are integral to the original scheme. The other question is whether they will be able to free themselves from their mythology of the primacy of the market enough to accept a "framework-based market" rather than a "market-based framework". The former sees the market as a tool, a means to an end. The latter sees the market as an end in itself.
_________________
"The greatest shortcoming of the human race (still) is our inability to understand the exponential function."
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
kenneal - lagger
Site Admin


Joined: 20 Sep 2006
Posts: 10303
Location: Newbury, Berkshire

PostPosted: Mon Oct 22, 2007 4:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I had a thought recently about CFLs. Although I think they are very good and I have been using them, almost 100%, for the last 30 years, they are a very high tech item and can't be repaired and reused as incandescents can. The Chinese used to recycle broken ones by drilling the glass, hooking up the broken filament and revacuuming the bulb again before sealing the hole.

This would be a very efficient use of a resource post PO. Perhaps they will have to go on our emergency shopping list. A couple of those working is better than a whole houseful of CFLs not working.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
RenewableCandy



Joined: 12 Sep 2007
Posts: 12569
Location: York

PostPosted: Mon Oct 22, 2007 4:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I know someone who says you CAN bring CFLs back to life if it's the electronics that have gone, I can't remember what he said you do but it didn't take any specialised kit beyond an AVO and a soldering iron.
I should have paid more attention...
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
kenneal - lagger
Site Admin


Joined: 20 Sep 2006
Posts: 10303
Location: Newbury, Berkshire

PostPosted: Mon Oct 22, 2007 9:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

When the tube goes there's not much that can be done, though. With ours it's usually the tube going (blackening and losing output).
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
adam2
Site Admin


Joined: 02 Jul 2007
Posts: 6552
Location: North Somerset

PostPosted: Tue Oct 23, 2007 10:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kenneal wrote:
I had a thought recently about CFLs. Although I think they are very good and I have been using them, almost 100%, for the last 30 years, they are a very high tech item and can't be repaired and reused as incandescents can. The Chinese used to recycle broken ones by drilling the glass, hooking up the broken filament and revacuuming the bulb again before sealing the hole.

This would be a very efficient use of a resource post PO. Perhaps they will have to go on our emergency shopping list. A couple of those working is better than a whole houseful of CFLs not working.


I dont feel that the repairing of light bulbs (conventional or CFL) is viable. To produce a good vaccuum and re-seal the bulb would require technology approaching that required to manufacture a new bulb. It would not be a good use of resources since the energy required (usually as natural gas or town gas) for small scale light bulb repair would probably be many times that required, per bulb, in a factory making new ones.

If society collapses to the point where light bulbs can no longer be made, then I doubt that electricity would be available.
Those like me who make there own electricity, or plan on so doing in future should purchase a good stock of bulbs, and not just 230/240 volt ones.
My stock amounts to
240 volt incandescent lamps in 15 watt, 25 watt, 40 watt, 60 watt, 100 watt, 150 watt; at least 25 of each
240 volt CFLs in 3 watt, 5 watt, 11 watt,18 watt, 25 watt; at least ten of each,
12 volt incandescent lamps, 15 watt, 25 watt, 40 watt, at least twenty of each.
12 volt CFLs 5 watt, 7 watt, 11 watt; about 20 in total.
25 volt incandescent lamps, 15 watt, 25 watt, 40 watt, 60 watt, at least ten of each.
Linear flourescent lamps, 8 watt, 25 of
I also have ample supplies of other lamps including torch bulbs.

Whilst my stocks may seem a little OTT, I would advise every one to at least keep a few spares.

In the event of any general collapse, it should be easy to scavenge light bulbs and flourescent tubes from buildings that have no electrcity and therefore no need of lamps.

In a future of energy and fuel shortages it could be unwise to show bright lights, or even any light. It would therefore be sensible to stock up on lamps of very low power, hence my stocks of 3 watt CFLs and 15 watt incandescent lamps.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
RogerCO



Joined: 24 Nov 2005
Posts: 672
Location: Cornwall, UK

PostPosted: Tue Oct 23, 2007 2:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't see any LED 'bulbs' in your list Adam2. They have a lot going for them in terms of lower still power consumption and better efficiency in conversion of watts to lumens and longer (claimed) life.

Agreed they are not good for space lighting, but for point lighting (eg reading or working lights) they are fantastic.

You can read a book quite from just 2 or three 'bright' torch leds - less than 1 watt. The newest GU10 (240v) adn MR16 (12v) format ones are giving a pleasing light (not the cold blue-white they used to be) and equivalent light to a 25W incandescent from 2W - four of them will light a room quite well.

I just got a couple of these from litebulbs.co.uk and am well pleased.
_________________
RogerCO
___________________________________
The time for politics is past - now is the time for action.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    PowerSwitch Forum Index -> Electrical, Theory and Practice All times are GMT + 1 Hour
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4 ... 9, 10, 11  Next
Page 3 of 11

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group