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Timetable set to phase out high-energy light bulbs
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Little John



Joined: 08 Mar 2008
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Location: UK

PostPosted: Sat Sep 03, 2016 6:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am saying that their novelty lights are expensive and no use as utility lights because of their low wattage/lumens. The utility lights they sell, on the other hand are also still too low in wattage/lumens and are more expensive than similar LED utility lights purchasable elsewhere.

So, for the vast majority of people who just need utility lights that are bright enough to be useful and cheap enough, this store fails. However, if their intended customer base is pretentious greenies who would like to have a fancy ass, but essentially useless novelty light, then they are possibly going to do rather well
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Little John



Joined: 08 Mar 2008
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Location: UK

PostPosted: Sat Sep 03, 2016 6:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pepperman wrote:
Little John wrote:
Pepperman wrote:
What do you have in mind in particular?

You have to take a slight hit on the lumens in order to get a higher CRI but 810 lumens for a 60W GLS replacement and 345 lumens for a 50W halogen replacement is about right.
1000 to 2000 lumens. Which are equivalent to ther lumen output of 100-150 watt incandescents. In LED terms, that's about 20 -25 watts


That's too bright for my taste. I'd prefer a couple of lower lumen lamps, maybe supplemented by a reading light, rather than one super bright one. Ikea do a decent one up at around 1000lm. Otherwise I think you're entering commercial / retail territory which will no doubt be expensive.
1000, to 2000 lumens was the absolute domestic norm only very recently. These are not super "bright" lights. They are simply equivalent to 100 watts or 150 watts incandescents.
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Pepperman



Joined: 10 Oct 2010
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 03, 2016 6:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Little John wrote:
I am saying that their novelty lights are expensive and no use as utility lights because of their low wattage/lumens. The utility lights they sell, on the other hand are also still too low in wattage/lumens and are more expensive than similar LED utility lights purchasable elsewhere.

So, for the vast majority of people who just need utility lights that are bright enough to be useful and cheap enough, this store fails. However, if their intended customer base is pretentious greenies who would like to have a fancy ass, but essentially useless novelty light, then they are possibly going to do rather well


Well actually a large proportion of the population don't simply want bright lights irrespective of how they look (I was on the customer facing end of the incandescent phase out so I have some experience in that area).

They hanker after a nice, warm, incandescent-style of light which is exactly what these give. You can definitely get cheaper LEDs but they really won't look as good as high CRI lamps and when something lasts 20,000 hours, a few quid really doesn't make the blindest bit of difference.

As it turns out Ikea do a whopping 1800lm LED but no word on the CRI. My guess is it'll be about 80 to get that kind of brightness. It also looks massive:

http://www.ikea.com/gb/en/catalog/products/70305979/
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Pepperman



Joined: 10 Oct 2010
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 03, 2016 6:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Little John wrote:
Pepperman wrote:
Little John wrote:
Pepperman wrote:
What do you have in mind in particular?

You have to take a slight hit on the lumens in order to get a higher CRI but 810 lumens for a 60W GLS replacement and 345 lumens for a 50W halogen replacement is about right.
1000 to 2000 lumens. Which are equivalent to ther lumen output of 100-150 watt incandescents. In LED terms, that's about 20 -25 watts


That's too bright for my taste. I'd prefer a couple of lower lumen lamps, maybe supplemented by a reading light, rather than one super bright one. Ikea do a decent one up at around 1000lm. Otherwise I think you're entering commercial / retail territory which will no doubt be expensive.
1000, to 2000 lumens was the absolute domestic norm only very recently. These are not super "bright" lights. They are simply equivalent to 100 watts or 150 watts incandescents.


A 150W incandescent was a very bright bulb!
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adam2
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Joined: 02 Jul 2007
Posts: 6217
Location: North Somerset

PostPosted: Sat Sep 03, 2016 6:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

LED lamps to directly replace GLS lamps of more than 60 watts are still a bit rare and expensive.
A true replacement for a 100 watt incandescent needs to be about 1,600 lumens, they do exist but expensive and sometimes of doubtful reliability.

For say a domestic living room I would prefer LED lamps in the 400 to 800 lumen range, making use of several lamps to achieve the required light level.
As an example, my living room is lit by 3 twin wall mounted fittings, 6 bulbs in total. Each was until recently an 11 watt CFL with a light output a bit less than a 60 watt incandescent. Recently replaced with 5 watt LED candle bulbs.

Several lower wattage lamps are often preferable, no total darkness if a lamp fails, less glare, and better light distribution.
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adam2
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 11, 2016 4:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pepperman wrote:
Oh and of course there's stockpiling of halogens going on at the moment:

http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/706646/EU-light-bulb-stockpile-shops-rules-ban-LED-halogen

Laughing

Appropriate byline for that piece...


What a lot of trouble some people are going to in order to waste electricity !

Energy wasting lamps are getting a bit harder to find, I am glad to say.
100 watt incandescents have largely disappeared from shop shelves.

Also a major loophole is about to be closed. Many suppliers evaded the incandescent ban by calling otherwise banned lamps "rough service" this is being stopped I am glad to say.

Most types of mains voltage halogen reflector lamp may no longer be manufactured or imported, though existing stocks may be sold or used without problems.

12 and 24 volt halogen reflector lamps are OK FOR NOW, but not I suspect for much longer.

Many less common incandescent lamps are no longer readily available, even types not covered by the ban.
12 volt, 15 watt GLS lamps seem to have gone the way of the dodo. A recent thorough fleabay search revealed only one supplier, in Australia, and at rather a high price.
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adam2
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 16, 2017 3:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have just been assisting a neighbour with installing new light fittings and wiring due to fire and water damage.

All halogen downlights have been removed.

The main living room is large but has a very low ceiling. All new lights are wall mounted.
There are 8 wall mounted light fittings each containing 3 lamps. Total of 24 lamps, each 3 watt LED.
The outer two lamps in each fitting are on one switch with the middle lamp on another switch, this gives a choice of three lighting levels.
The middle lamps are on a UPS thus giving one third of the full lighting in a power failure.
Total loading 72 watts for a large room.
Previous loading for same room was well over 1,000 watts.

In the entrance hall, stairs and upper landing, the existing chandeliers were retained after rewiring. The lamps are now divided between two circuits so as to permit of full or reduced lighting.
Total loading is now 72 watts from 24 lamps each 3 watt LED.
The reduced lighting level uses 6 lamps only, these are supplied from the UPS.
Previously the lamps were 40 watts each for total of nearly 1,000 watts.

Unfortunately I have not been able to source a low energy equivalent for the 3 way bulbs in several floor standing lamps. 240 volt, 60/100/160 watt.
CFL and LED equivalents are available from America but are of course for 120 volts and no good here without a transformer.
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kenneal - lagger
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 16, 2017 6:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

"3 way bulbs"??
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fuzzy



Joined: 29 Nov 2013
Posts: 595
Location: The Marches, UK

PostPosted: Thu Nov 16, 2017 8:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Is it just 3 dimmer levels? We have bedside lamps that do that, and need filament bulbs
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adam2
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 16, 2017 8:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

"3 way bulbs" are ones with two filaments of different wattages, a switch typically built into the lamp holder selects the larger or the smaller filament, or both thereby giving 3 light levels from a single lamp.

These lamps had a special screw cap with an extra ring shaped contact between the pip and the shell of a standard screw base.

Various wattages were available, the most common had a 60 watt filament and a 100 watt filament thereby giving three light levels, described as 60/100/160 watt.
Other choices included 40/60/100 watt, and 100/150/250 watt, this with a larger screw base.

Popular in the 1960s, once people demanded something a bit more sophisticated than "on or off" but before the general availability of cheap semi conductor dimmers.
A 3 way bulb on the lowest setting was a lot more efficient than a large bulb on a dimmer, though that was back in the days of "a penny a unit and the more you want, the better"

No one seems to sell a low energy equivalent for 240 volt circuits, 120 volt 3 way bulbs are readily available and still very popular in America.
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adam2
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 16, 2017 8:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

A selection of 3 way bulbs from a major USA retailer
https://www.walmart.com/c/kp/3-way-bulbs
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adam2
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 16, 2017 8:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

fuzzy wrote:
Is it just 3 dimmer levels? We have bedside lamps that do that, and need filament bulbs


No, it is an incandescent lamp with two filaments of different wattages that can therefore give different lighting levels, or a low energy lamp that when inserted into the special 3 way holder gives a similar result.
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cubes



Joined: 10 Jun 2008
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 16, 2017 11:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It annoys me that a lot of pubs/restaurants now those "moody" low light incandescent bulbs. Look crap and no good for lighting either imo.
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adam2
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 16, 2017 11:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

cubes wrote:
It annoys me that a lot of pubs/restaurants now use those "moody" low light incandescent bulbs. Look crap and no good for lighting either imo.


If they are true incandescent bulbs, with an old style "squirrel cage" filament, then I agree entirely. Such lamps have an appalling efficiency, even worse than modern incandescent lamps. Vendors of such lamps often call them "carbon filament" which is untrue. They do not even look like carbon filament lamps, they use a tungsten filament and somewhat resemble the very early tungsten lamps.
It is however possible, IMHO, that some of the lamps that you have observed are in fact LED "filament" bulbs, these have a good efficiency and may be used freely if they produce the desired effect.
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adam2
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 17, 2017 10:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Historical note, twin filament bulbs were used in France for street lighting decades ago.
A 500 watt filament from dusk until midnight, and then a 200 watt filament after midnight when a reduced light was acceptable.
Twin filament lamps are still widely used for railway signals and for vehicles.

Domestic 3 way 240 volt bulbs are now hard to find, and AFAIK no one makes a low energy replacement.

If anyone knows of a supplier, please post here.
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