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What do you have against nuclear?
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Adam1



Joined: 01 Sep 2006
Posts: 2707

PostPosted: Fri Jan 11, 2008 4:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

RalphW wrote:
The opportunity cost of training these nuclear engineers (and they will be needed in their thousands) will be HUGE. Nuclear is not a build and forget technology. Wind turbines can be maintained by jobs worths or even red necks.


Yeah, exactly. The most demotivated, clumsy or negligent worker couldn't cause that much damage, even with one of the biggest 5MW turbines.

The highly specialist skills needed by the nuclear sector should be factored into the EROEI equation, even if it's difficult to quantify exactly.
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RenewableCandy



Joined: 12 Sep 2007
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 11, 2008 4:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes and might I add that Engineering Departments at Unis are an engangered species and would be even MORE endangered were it not for the large numbers of Chinese and Indian studes, bless 'em, who come and study there. And then go back home (sometimes because HMG are stupid enough to send them away).
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RenewableCandy



Joined: 12 Sep 2007
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 17, 2008 11:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

STG wrote:
Well then you probably also know that in the time ITER was planned the USA pulled the plug on their finances, so we had to scale down ITER.

When the plan was there the USA joined again and started arguing about building it in the US...So the reason for the delay: US politics!

For the arguments about fission I will write a big piece tomorrow...


It's all gone terribly quiet...
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Andy Hunt



Joined: 24 Nov 2005
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 17, 2008 11:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

He didn't say he would post it up here . . . we wouldn't understand it anyway.
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clv101
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Joined: 24 Nov 2005
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2008 10:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

STG wrote:
For the arguments about fission I will write a big piece tomorrow...


Here's the big piece we had on The Oil Drum:

Will Nuclear Fusion Fill the Gap Left by Peak Oil?
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STG



Joined: 07 Jan 2008
Posts: 89

PostPosted: Sun Jan 20, 2008 1:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Andy Hunt wrote:
He didn't say he would post it up here . . . we wouldn't understand it anyway.


Well I will need to post it later, I had some delays in learning certain items and also an exam which laster till 23:00...and as my exams are my primary concern, I won't put too much effort in explaining something difficult to you...but rather to my professors which give me marks on it!

For Fusion, it won't! The USA have budget problems...there goes the dream to go working on fusion and maybe see a reactor build at the end of my life. But now I already have a potential research topic to exclude...
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Vortex



Joined: 16 May 2006
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 21, 2008 10:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

STG wrote:
Well like throw the budget of all cultural stuff on fusion...I bet we could get an operational plant (125MWe) in like 10yrs, start conceptual design of huge plants earlier and realise a demonstration 1000MWe plant in maybe 15yrs.

And maybe replace a lot of existing power plants in 25yrs...
.

Please excuse my French ... but that's bollocks.

That MIGHT be possible but NOT with the JET or ITER crowd.

They have proved themselves to be failures for FIFTY - yes - FIFTY years.

Throw the problem at Sun, Microsoft or IBM ... and then maybe, just maybe ... we would have a chance.

Also you say:
Quote:
as my exams are my primary concern, I won't put too much effort in explaining something difficult to you.

STG, please note that the people in the nuclear fusion world are not necessarily the brightest around ... their lack of progress since 1954 is a slight hint ...

I have worked in the nuclear and several other industries and there is one common thread: they all have bright & stupid people. Nuclear industry people are not especially brighter than say those who work in economics or food factory automation.
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STG



Joined: 07 Jan 2008
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 21, 2008 11:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Vortex wrote:

They have proved themselves to be failures for FIFTY - yes - FIFTY years.

Throw the problem at Sun, Microsoft or IBM ... and then maybe, just maybe ... we would have a chance.

Also you say:
Quote:
as my exams are my primary concern, I won't put too much effort in explaining something difficult to you.

STG, please note that the people in the nuclear fusion world are not necessarily the brightest around ... their lack of progress since 1954 is a slight hint ...

I have worked in the nuclear and several other industries and there is one common thread: they all have bright & stupid people. Nuclear industry people are not especially brighter than say those who work in economics or food factory automation.


I take this as an insult! I know certain people working on JET and ITER design, some of my most gifter professors are!...But they are very bright on there own subject. They really know what they're doing! The fact that you say that there has been no or almost no progress relfects that you know little or nothing of the elementary physics of Magnetic Confinement Fusion! There has been huge discoveries on the plasma confinement and so on...On the side of economics, energy and waste issues I sometimes disagree with them...
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RenewableCandy



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PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2008 12:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yup these guys might be brilliant mathematicians but let's get back to practicalities: this country has an energy gap to fill on the electricity grid pretty damn soon. With the best will in the world fusion is not going to fill it.

Fission, even with the type of state aid they have in France (where they have, erm, a State!) and even if the fairies take away the waste for us and repair the occasional crack and see off the terrorists, will struggle to get in on time.

The Physics is pretty much sorted, it's the logistics, the finance, the safety and, frankly, the 'culture' (and the politics) that need attention.
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Vortex



Joined: 16 May 2006
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2008 2:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I take this as an insult

Take it anyway you like.

Some observations:

* Another nuclear project, the Manhattan project to build the A bomb took under five years.

* The first microprocessor - the puny Intel 4004 - was released in 1971 ... and in the subsequent 35 or so years the world has been transformed.

* The human genome project took 13 years.

A FIFTY year lack of progress is, IMHO, a disgrace.

I am a Physicist and I am NOT in awe of scientists. There are some geniuses but as in any field there are plenty of also-rans too.
It must be quite appealing for quiet, shy, scientist types to get a comfortable job on a long term fusion project. The money might not be wonderful - but it's probably easier than working in industry.

There will also be plenty of manager types lurking in the fusion business too.

I look forward to seeing a Virgin Fusion or Microsoft Fusion Systems. You can bet that they would NOT hire more than a handful of staff from the current fusion sector!
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RenewableCandy



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PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2008 4:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Vortex wrote:
Microsoft Fusion Systems


Noooooo...I can see it now...

Problem installing the new Fusion 2008 at Didcot...

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Last edited by RenewableCandy on Tue Jan 22, 2008 5:04 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Vortex



Joined: 16 May 2006
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2008 4:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tsk ... that was Microsoft Fusion Version 3.0.

Microsoft Fusion Version 3.1 will be MUCH more stable ...

... and Microsoft Fusion NT will be mega!
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WolfattheDoor



Joined: 10 Jan 2006
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2008 4:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Vortex wrote:
Tsk ... that was Microsoft Fusion Version 3.0.

Microsoft Fusion Version 3.1 will be MUCH more stable ...

... and Microsoft Fusion NT will be mega!


It should be available in another fifty years or so...
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STG



Joined: 07 Jan 2008
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2008 5:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Vortex wrote:

Some observations:

* Another nuclear project, the Manhattan project to build the A bomb took under five years.

* The first microprocessor - the puny Intel 4004 - was released in 1971 ... and in the subsequent 35 or so years the world has been transformed.

* The human genome project took 13 years.

A FIFTY year lack of progress is, IMHO, a disgrace.


Well let's take a more technical look at al of this, and try to reject your retarded arguments:

(i) Manhattan Project: They could do whatever they wanted to start with. Secondly fission is much more easy to accomplish then fusion. I don't see a nucleus and a neutron exercise repulsive forces! (And a little sidenote, how would you explain the Germans failing in their research?)

(ii) Well If you take all the development which lead to the first microprocessor, then you also have take into account the quantum mechanics of Silicon, the description of the lattice and growth procedures of pure cristals...So the total scientific knowledge was developed over let's say 100 years!

(iii) Well about this I don't know anything...I'll ask my sister when I see her because she knows more about this..

Now let's take a more detailed look at what happened in the fifty years of fusion research:

(i) The discovery of the tokamak principle, needed to control the plasma state needed for fusion. Of course the classical tokamak as developed in Russia has it's limits...Huge limit: pulse mode due to magnets!
(ii) limits were described and the limits to achieve fusion were also described.
(iii) Meanhwile lots of technological improvements were achieved on fields as material science, computer power, antennas, accelerators, super conducting magnets... And all of this found it's way into the fusion research.
(iv) Meanwhile some fundamental plasma physics were discovered. Which are of primary importance if you want to control fusion (It's like Solid state physics for a chip).
(v) Interaction of technical and scientific knowledge occurs and other means to further and more selective heat the plasma were discoved (electromagnetic heating). The current needed for confinement which was delivered by a huge magnetic coil can now be replaced by electromagnetic antennas which can operate in steady state...Yet some have implications on the size of the tokamak, therefor a larger device is needed for tests resulting in better understanding: ITER.
(vi) Nowadays a lot of technical knowledge of fusion research is also going towards other technical sectors. Also some research is moving from fundamental physics to harnessing the power of fusion....

And last but not least, the budget compared to the technological system needed is ridiculous!

But of course we have done almost nothing in those 50 years...
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Vortex



Joined: 16 May 2006
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2008 6:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
and try to reject your retarded arguments:

Sheesh ... please, please, please do not ever look at a 9/11 conspiracy web site ... your very soul will be sucked from your nostrils ....
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