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Wind Power Could Make Norway "Europe's Battery"
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Aurora



Joined: 24 Jan 2007
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PostPosted: Tue May 27, 2008 8:11 pm    Post subject: Wind Power Could Make Norway "Europe's Battery" Reply with quote

Quote:
Planet Ark - 27/05/08

Norway could become "Europe's battery" by developing huge sea-based wind parks costing up to $44 billion by 2025, Norway's Oil and Energy Minister said on Monday.

Article continues ...
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adam2
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PostPosted: Wed May 28, 2008 8:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sounds an excellent idea, the principle objection to wind power is that it is inherently inttermitant, the wind may not blow when power is required.

It would appear that Norway propose to overcome this objection by useing wind and hydroelectric power.
Hydro power can be easily controlled to make up for the variable wind input, and every hour that wind power replaces hydro power is another hours worth of water available for use in calm weather.

The UK should be considering similar schemes, although we have hydro power (mainly in Scotland) the plant generaly runs 24/7 rather than responding to changes in demand.
In some cases it may be viable to replace the turbines/generators with units of much greater capacity, thereby greatly increasing the power available at times of high demand or low wind.
The output at other times would have to be limited to avoid running out of water.
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Adam1



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PostPosted: Mon Aug 11, 2008 8:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Have only just seen this thread. The original article is no longer available but from the quote above, it looks like the Norwegians are just saying that they have a good wind resource.

I would imagine that Norway has a great potential to develop pumped lots of storage. That way, using HVDC, they could genuinely act as a "battery", by providing a buffer to balance supply and demand in a wholly renewables-based grid.
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adam2
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 12, 2008 8:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

As far as I remember, the proposal was not to use pumped storage, but simply to vary the output from conventional hydroelectric schemes.
At times of low demand elswhere in Europe they proposed to import wind generated power for domestic use, thus conserving water in dams.

At times of peak demand they would use the "saved" water to generate at greater rates and thus meet both domestic and export demands.

Whenever possible such schemes are better than pumped storage since the "charging" and "discharging" losses of pumped storage are avoided.
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Aurora



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PostPosted: Tue Aug 26, 2008 11:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Adam1 wrote:
Have only just seen this thread. The original article is no longer available but from the quote above, it looks like the Norwegians are just saying that they have a good wind resource.

I would imagine that Norway has a great potential to develop pumped lots of storage. That way, using HVDC, they could genuinely act as a "battery", by providing a buffer to balance supply and demand in a wholly renewables-based grid.

Try again Adam. The article is still available via the original link:

http://www.planetark.org/dailynewsstory.cfm/newsid/48504/story.htm
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Adam1



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PostPosted: Wed Aug 27, 2008 11:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

That's good news. I bet they will actually do it, rather than talking about it, like we've been doing.

There are still lots of people here to seem to think that wind power doesn't work. I had a conversation with one of them at the weekend. It doesn't seem to have any impact on them when you tell them about Denmark or Germany or Spain. As far as know, the laws of physics are the same in the UK as our neighbours!
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fifthcolumn



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PostPosted: Tue Mar 31, 2009 8:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thinking outside the box.

The hydro in Scotland could be replaced by enough wind to cover it and then use it as pumped storage instead.

That way there's a pumped storage system already built without having to build a new one.
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DominicJ



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PostPosted: Wed Apr 01, 2009 11:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The question still stands, what do you do when it isnt windy?
You can buy nuclear electricity off France (S&G) or hydro off Norway(D), but thats reliant on someone having some reliable power.

Now, if Norway wants to spend $44b building hundreds of thousands of windmills and daming enough Fjords to provide several weeks back up power, ACE.
If they can do that and sell the electricity profitably for under 5p a kwh, even awesomer.
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RenewableCandy



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PostPosted: Wed Apr 01, 2009 4:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

DominicJ wrote:
The question still stands, what do you do when it isnt windy?
You let the water out of the lochs, that's been sitting there since last time it was windy. You probably need more lochs, mind. As far as making nice dams goes I think Scotland has already done Peak Lochs Sad .
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DominicJ



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PostPosted: Wed Apr 01, 2009 5:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thats kind of what I went on to with daming the fjords.

I'm all for wind provided its economic and reliable, its reliable if we have pumped storage or delay able hydro, that just leaves economic.
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fifthcolumn



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PostPosted: Wed Apr 01, 2009 11:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

DominicJ wrote:
Thats kind of what I went on to with daming the fjords.

I'm all for wind provided its economic and reliable, its reliable if we have pumped storage or delay able hydro, that just leaves economic.


We do have pumped storage though. It's just being used at full capacity.
I reckon if we can build excess wind to cover the current hydro capacity, we can use the existing DODGY as pumped storage.
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DominicJ



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PostPosted: Thu Apr 02, 2009 8:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I'm all for wind provided its economic and reliable, its reliable if we have pumped storage or delay able hydro, that just leaves economic.


Maybe that should say, if we have enough to cover us for a week of no wind.

The big problem with wind, in my view is that a wind turbine says, today I will produce X electricty between Y and Z.
We dont tell it when to produce and what to produce.
If we have a lot hydro that we can turn on and off quickly, and for long periods of time, then awesome, big problem solved.

Prior to this, whenever I've mentioned the wind doesnt work when its not windy point, people have just sort of yelled, wind is currently producing 30% of spains power, which is great, but its windy...
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Ted



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PostPosted: Thu Apr 02, 2009 11:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

But this can only work if the water levels can be managed appropriately. If you have a loch/fjord with a more or less constant water supply flowing into it then at some point you have to let the water out whether you need the hydro power or not.
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DominicJ



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PostPosted: Thu Apr 02, 2009 11:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Do you?
Lake Nasser in Egypt stores 150 cubic kilometres of water, and when that got full they made two more lakes.

I guess there are eventualy going to be limits, but since its essentialy "free" you could I suppose, shut down other generating DODGY (coal or nuclear for repair work ect), and if there is none, just sell really cheap electricity for a week, or just dump it.

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The new lakes in Egypt cant be diverted back to the Aswan Dam, but they do get used for irrigation.
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kenneal - lagger
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 03, 2009 4:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="DominicJ"]
Quote:
Maybe that should say, if we have enough to cover us for a week of no wind.


It's highly unlikely that the whole of the UK is in still air at the same time (I've seen the figures somewhere but can't find them at the moment) so we need an excess of capacity in any one area to make up for this. With a HVDC transmission system covering Europe you would get 99.99% certainty of wind somewhere. You would also have biomass CHP systems, various types of solar electricity, hydro and microhydro to keep the system going.

The main thing to keep the system going would be to use a damn sight less than we use at the moment by using compact fluorescent lamps and not leaving street lights on all night to use up nuclear electricity that can't be turned off. Smart metering used to turn on washing machines and freezers at times of excess electricity production would also spread the load.
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